[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Rob13567

the mustang has a ZF transmission?

The A6 is a licensed built ZF design

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by Number 3

A longgggg time ago.

Let me re state my fear. We lost the Camaro in 2003 because of poor sales. Not from the hot, bad A$$, V8 that bat th Mustang sales. Those held to the very end. But that volume was obviously not enough to keep the car in production. It was the simple fact that it was a pretty crappy V6 coupe. It had horrid ergonomics, ingress and egress were horrid and there was no trunk storage, and for a hatch it was even worse. So people looking for V8 performance still bought the car. People looking for a coupe to do every day stuff stayed away.......in droves.

I am afraid that with a smaller rear seat, a smaller trunk, and yes poor visibility, coupe buyers may reject the new Camaro.

And as I've always said, I hope I'm wrong.

My concern really has little to do with whether I think visibility is bad. I worry that I4 and V6 buyers that are considering a broader group of cars will......and not buy.

Everyone on this site will pretty much forgive these flaws. Not sure the general car buyers will.

I remember when the first reviews of the 5th gen came out. Alot of them were quite negative, stating the poor visibility, weight of the car, small trunk and back seat, it handles like a fat pig, etc..

I also remember thinking after reading the reviews "Jeez, this car will sell like hotcakes for the first 6 months or so, then sales will plummet like a rock when people find out all the flaws with it".

Glad I was wrong. I know alot of non-car people just want to be seen in a cool car like the Camaro, but people are underestimating the fact that alot of non-car people will love the 6th gen because of the driving dynamics, which for all intents and purposes is light years better than the fifth gen.

People might debate this, but I think the Camaro would have sold even more starting in 2009 if the economy had been better. And the fact GM was in turmoil because of the bankruptcy didn't help. Mustang is currently selling well because of 0 % financing, 84 month financing, and sales of the V6 convertible to rental car companies.

For me, I will be driving my 2016 Camaro with my wife in the passenger seat... the back seat and trunk will be used for bags of groceries or whatever else will fit. My wife's Saturn Ion sedan (or hopefully soon a 2016 Cruze) will be used to transport more people, and my 1997 S10 pickup will be used to haul things. I think alot of people will be in a situation like this.

And BTW...I will be purchasing either a T4 or V6 2016 Camaro.

[Noob]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Challenger and Chargers have electric steering too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

not the older one´s and not the Hellcats.

[Noob]

Originally Posted by huggercamaro21

Guess I'll just play video games tomorrow........

i play "Project Cars" and have dowloaded the 2015 Mustang GT which inside view seems exactly the same as in real...(think the Camaro 2016 cant match that sight over a wide long hood). a really nice AddOn.
Bodyroll is a bit more than in real life some say but it likes to handle and drift well especially on the Willow Springs track !
I really hope they will make the 2016 Camaro SS too !!!

[LovePhenom]

Originally Posted by 2000Firehawk

It just couldn't be updated, as it was just to obsolete, to be updated to the new safety standards.
Also high union costs at the plant, GM wanted out of that place.
Also 2 door coupe sales tanked everywhere, because of the market shifting away from them at the time.

Why is the UAW always blamed? Labor is only 6-7% the cost of a new vehicle.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by LovePhenom

Why is the UAW always blamed? Labor is only 6-7% the cost of a new vehicle.

At the time, under old GM, it was much worse. Very bad. 20-30% of the cost for GM to produce every car went to labor. It was an unsustainable business model that forced GM to over produce then sell for a loss.

When GM was bailed out the UAW had to accept new tiers of wages, or the company would have completely gone out of business. They were hemoraging hundreds of thousands of dollars per day in the summer of 2008.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by fastball

At the time, under old GM, it was much worse. Very bad. 20-30% of the cost for GM to produce every car went to labor. It was an unsustainable business model that forced GM to over produce then sell for a loss.

When GM was bailed out the UAW had to accept new tiers of wages, or the company would have completely gone out of business. They were hemoraging hundreds of thousands of dollars per day in the summer of 2008.

Not true, the UAW had made concessions before GM went under and no labor wasn't 20-30% of the cost of a vehicle at GM.

What hurt GM wasn't its labor cost, it was retiree cost as they had out sourced work to either suppliers or to plants in Asia and Mexico. Because of this they retired a lot of their employees giving them a lot of legacy cost on top of still having labor cost. GM bean counters made really poor choices, this is why they shouldn't be allowed to run companies.

The general cost of a vehicle break down based on a report from some years ago is.....

50% parts
40% white collar (engineers, designers, marketing....)
10% blue collar

[LovePhenom]

Originally Posted by fastball

At the time, under old GM, it was much worse. Very bad. 20-30% of the cost for GM to produce every car went to labor. It was an unsustainable business model that forced GM to over produce then sell for a loss.

When GM was bailed out the UAW had to accept new tiers of wages, or the company would have completely gone out of business. They were hemoraging hundreds of thousands of dollars per day in the summer of 2008.

Implying that the union workers caused the bailout is inaccurate. http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/04/det...1205union.html

[hotlap]

The gen4 was a controversial design when new. Selling it 10 model years didn't help its sales at the end. The introduction of the LS1 helped V8 sales but what incentive otherwise was there to buy the same car twice.

As for gen6, I was hoping for a radical new design with emphasis on styling but I'm ok with the new car. The styling is more chiseled with a really nice interior, tech and stellar performance. HUD and availalbe mag ride are huge to me.

Number3 wants a coupe that would be more in line with the old Chevelle or Monte SS. Something more CTS in size, inside and out. My point in asking which of the six generations of Camaro was a great coupe was that none really were. They were great pony cars that sold on performance styling. If styling isn't the draw, why wouldn't that I4 or V6 buyer go for an Accord, Malibu, etc. ? Rear drive isn't the draw.

[Zack46]

Best Car Review Quote, "The Mustang Growls, The Camaro Howls"

Love It!!

Can't wait to drive mine.

[Zack46]

Originally Posted by Number 3

A longgggg time ago.

Let me re state my fear. We lost the Camaro in 2003 because of poor sales. Not from the hot, bad A$$, V8 that bat th Mustang sales. Those held to the very end. But that volume was obviously not enough to keep the car in production. It was the simple fact that it was a pretty crappy V6 coupe. It had horrid ergonomics, ingress and egress were horrid and there was no trunk storage, and for a hatch it was even worse. So people looking for V8 performance still bought the car. People looking for a coupe to do every day stuff stayed away.......in droves.

I am afraid that with a smaller rear seat, a smaller trunk, and yes poor visibility, coupe buyers may reject the new Camaro.

And as I've always said, I hope I'm wrong.




My concern really has little to do with whether I think visibility is bad. I worry that I4 and V6 buyers that are considering a broader group of cars will......and not buy.

Everyone on this site will pretty much forgive these flaws. Not sure the general car buyers will.

Number3, sorry to burst your bubble, but this new Camaro will SELL. The fifth gen was great in terms of sales. This new sixth gen will be even greater. Read and Re-read ALL of the car reviews. Watch the videos. EVERYONE loves it. People who BUY the Camaro could care less about the rear seat room. That's not the point of the car. The point is driving a COOL car and having FUN.

I mean, what more is there to life?

Know what I mean?

Can't wait to drive mine!!

P.S. The mustang growls, The Camaro Howls

[SpeedIsLife]

There's a very real difference between magazine reviews and real world, everyday buyers.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Zack46

Number3, sorry to burst your bubble, but this new Camaro will SELL. The fifth gen was great in terms of sales. This new sixth gen will be even greater. Read and Re-read ALL of the car reviews. Watch the videos. EVERYONE loves it. People who BUY the Camaro could care less about the rear seat room. That's not the point of the car. The point is driving a COOL car and having FUN.

I mean, what more is there to life?

Know what I mean?

Can't wait to drive mine!!

P.S. The mustang growls, The Camaro Howls

Z/28, BRZ/FRS twins, I'm sure others can think of more. All had great reviews and terrible sales.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[BlkReaper]

Originally Posted by Number 3

A longgggg time ago.

Let me re state my fear. We lost the Camaro in 2003 because of poor sales. Not from the hot, bad A$$, V8 that bat th Mustang sales. Those held to the very end. But that volume was obviously not enough to keep the car in production. It was the simple fact that it was a pretty crappy V6 coupe. It had horrid ergonomics, ingress and egress were horrid and there was no trunk storage, and for a hatch it was even worse. So people looking for V8 performance still bought the car. People looking for a coupe to do every day stuff stayed away.......in droves.

I am afraid that with a smaller rear seat, a smaller trunk, and yes poor visibility, coupe buyers may reject the new Camaro.

And as I've always said, I hope I'm wrong.

My concern really has little to do with whether I think visibility is bad. I worry that I4 and V6 buyers that are considering a broader group of cars will......and not buy.

Everyone on this site will pretty much forgive these flaws. Not sure the general car buyers will.

to be fair, we lost almost half of the available rwd cars in or around 2002.
Rwd as a whole seen a decline.