[fastball]

Originally Posted by Number 3

A longgggg time ago.

Let me re state my fear. We lost the Camaro in 2003 because of poor sales. Not from the hot, bad A$$, V8 that bat th Mustang sales. Those held to the very end. But that volume was obviously not enough to keep the car in production. It was the simple fact that it was a pretty crappy V6 coupe. It had horrid ergonomics, ingress and egress were horrid and there was no trunk storage, and for a hatch it was even worse. So people looking for V8 performance still bought the car. People looking for a coupe to do every day stuff stayed away.......in droves.

I am afraid that with a smaller rear seat, a smaller trunk, and yes poor visibility, coupe buyers may reject the new Camaro.

And as I've always said, I hope I'm wrong.

My concern really has little to do with whether I think visibility is bad. I worry that I4 and V6 buyers that are considering a broader group of cars will......and not buy.

Everyone on this site will pretty much forgive these flaws. Not sure the general car buyers will.

This is a very good point. I have a 2009 Accord EX-L V6 coupe right now. The back seat and trunk are very useful. People are actually surprised when they get in how much room there is back there. I can fit a yardvac in my trunk, with the handle sticking out. This is all because they built the coupe on the chassis of the sedan without making "coupe" modifications. Only the body parts are different.

I'm under no illusions of grandeur with the Camaro - I do not expect to cram people in my back seat or the yardvac in the trunk. So I understand exactly what you are saying..... I'm buying the SS for the performance and to get the itch of owning a big honking V8 muscle car out of my system. But as an everyday people and stuff hauler? No way.

I'm keeping the Accord for that.

[2000Firehawk]

Originally Posted by Number 3

A longgggg time ago.

Let me re state my fear. We lost the Camaro in 2003 because of poor sales.

Not true
GEN4 was killed off as it couldn't meet the new 2003 goverment crash standards.

That's how the Crown Vic died off recently too, as it couldn't meet new government crash standards.

[Iroc_Z28]

Originally Posted by 2000Firehawk

Not true
GEN4 was killed off as it couldn't meet the new 2003 goverment crash standards.

That's how the Crown Vic died off recently too, as it couldn't meet new government crash standards.

If 4th gen sales were good, money would have been invested and the car would have been updated to meet the '03 standards... I'm almost certain that around the time of the refresh in '98 the writing was on the wall for the death of the f body twins because of poor sales

[Indydriver]

Just finished reading the whole thread and many of the reviews...

First, congrats to the Camaro team at GM for their stunning success. They changed everything which was a hell of a risk, making hundreds of critical design decisions that couldn't possibly please everyone. It sure looks like the Camaro reputation and hundreds of millions of dollars they were entrusted with were well spent.

To those of you who had the guts and faith to order this car sight unseen (or test-driven), I say congratulations and thank you for supporting the Camaro transition. You are rightfully busting at the seams to take delivery and it's fun to revisit those same feelings I had while waiting for my factory order.

Don't get too hung up on any negatives written in the reviews. Remember, they are entertainers first. When a supposedly serious publication like R&T says my Gen5 "feels like a limp, sweaty sock on the road", you know to take their colorful shock statements with a huge grain of salt.

Anyway, it's all good, isn't it? I haven't seen 'New Car Fever' like this in a long time and it's exciting. I can't wait to read your individual driving impressions once the cars begin delivering. Enjoy!

[2000Firehawk]

Originally Posted by Iroc_Z28

If 4th gen sales were good, money would have been invested and the car would have been updated to meet the '03 standards... I'm almost certain that around the time of the refresh in '98 the writing was on the wall for the death of the f body twins because of poor sales

It just couldn't be updated, as it was just to obsolete, to be updated to the new safety standards.
Also high union costs at the plant, GM wanted out of that place.
Also 2 door coupe sales tanked everywhere, because of the market shifting away from them at the time.

[i2disturbedSS]

It was cuz of sales.

[SSport16]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer70

My mail came today... so nothing new hear until Monday.

Nothing in my mail either, hopefully soon.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Iroc_Z28

If 4th gen sales were good, money would have been invested and the car would have been updated to meet the '03 standards... I'm almost certain that around the time of the refresh in '98 the writing was on the wall for the death of the f body twins because of poor sales

Search for user fbodfather on this and the camaro5 forums. He is Scott Settlemeyer, who has been a GM Camaro/Firebird team member for almost 30 years. He was an integral part of the development of the 4th gen. He even said that the F body was impossible to meet new impact standards without so much re-engineering that would have essentially been an entirely new platform and cost hundreds of millions of dollars to retool the St. Theresse plant.

Sales weren't great but weren't the only consideration to stop production.

[SSport16]

Originally Posted by fastball

Search for user fbodfather on this and the camaro5 forums. He is Scott Settlemeyer, who has been a GM Camaro/Firebird team member for almost 30 years. He was an integral part of the development of the 4th gen. He even said that the F body was impossible to meet new impact standards without so much re-engineering that would have essentially been an entirely new platform and cost hundreds of millions of dollars to retool the St. Theresse plant.

Sales weren't great but weren't the only consideration to stop production.

He was of course a huge part of the reason the 5th gen was born and the Camaro returned! We should all be greatful for Scott and his team, otherwise we wouldn't be here on a 6th gen Camaro forum anxiously waiting for our new Camaros to arrive! Big thanks to Scott!

[GTIanZ28]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I am afraid that with a smaller rear seat, a smaller trunk, and yes poor visibility, coupe buyers may reject the new Camaro.

And as I've always said, I hope I'm wrong.

My concern really has little to do with whether I think visibility is bad. I worry that I4 and V6 buyers that are considering a broader group of cars will......and not buy.

Everyone on this site will pretty much forgive these flaws. Not sure the general car buyers will.

Think I'm almost exactly the type of buyer you are referring to. Granted I have had a couple camaro's in the past and I'm excited to get another.

But, when the redesigned mustang came out I immediately said "I could see myself driving that." I priced out a GT but wasn't quite in the position to buy. No way I'd buy the turbo 4.

That got me looking at the 3.6 ATS as well. I was seriously considering a used ATS but I like manual transmissions. In the past I was checking out the Infinity g37 coupe. Not quite my style.

A couple years back I was quite excited by the FRS/BRZ. I still like that car. It isn't very refined or sophisticated (bit too much fast and furious drift scene). Ultimately, I decided to wait to see if it would get a turbo. Just not fast enough. I would have taken a turbo 4 in a 2800 lb car.

Used vetted and gen 5 camaros were also cars I checked out. Wife is opposed to the vette. The gen 5 is a heavy beast as are the Chargers/Challengers.

I have no interest in the repair cost of German cars.... Been there Done that. Never again.

Have I covered every RWD sports coupe on the market? All that i'd be interested in.

That left 1 car:

When I saw the Gen 6 camaro and did my research to find that it was promised to be lighter and on the ATS platform with a manual trans - Game over! and I ordered on blind faith that it is going to be a performer.

I'm also $7000 over my target price point. I can afford a $40k car but, I typically let someone else take the initial depreciation hit and save tons of money!

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by Number 3

A longgggg time ago.

Let me re state my fear. We lost the Camaro in 2003 because of poor sales. Not from the hot, bad A$$, V8 that bat th Mustang sales. Those held to the very end. But that volume was obviously not enough to keep the car in production. It was the simple fact that it was a pretty crappy V6 coupe. It had horrid ergonomics, ingress and egress were horrid and there was no trunk storage, and for a hatch it was even worse. So people looking for V8 performance still bought the car. People looking for a coupe to do every day stuff stayed away.......in droves.

I am afraid that with a smaller rear seat, a smaller trunk, and yes poor visibility, coupe buyers may reject the new Camaro.

And as I've always said, I hope I'm wrong.

My concern really has little to do with whether I think visibility is bad. I worry that I4 and V6 buyers that are considering a broader group of cars will......and not buy.

Everyone on this site will pretty much forgive these flaws. Not sure the general car buyers will.

i heard those comparison's years ago, and i had a 4thgen. But my brother has a 2002 mustang. to be honest i'm surprised how nice it handles....But beyond that the Camaro was nicer. The mustang is very cramped for shoulder and arm room . the back seat i can't say is any better, and the engine....the 3.8 in the Camaro was Waaaaaaay smoother than the ford engine. It's a more compact car on the outside, but i don't see really any other upside to it.

[Sledgehammer70]

Originally Posted by Number 3

A longgggg time ago.

Let me re state my fear. We lost the Camaro in 2003 because of poor sales. Not from the hot, bad A$$, V8 that bat th Mustang sales. Those held to the very end. But that volume was obviously not enough to keep the car in production. It was the simple fact that it was a pretty crappy V6 coupe. It had horrid ergonomics, ingress and egress were horrid and there was no trunk storage, and for a hatch it was even worse. So people looking for V8 performance still bought the car. People looking for a coupe to do every day stuff stayed away.......in droves.

I am afraid that with a smaller rear seat, a smaller trunk, and yes poor visibility, coupe buyers may reject the new Camaro.

And as I've always said, I hope I'm wrong.

My concern really has little to do with whether I think visibility is bad. I worry that I4 and V6 buyers that are considering a broader group of cars will......and not buy.

Everyone on this site will pretty much forgive these flaws. Not sure the general car buyers will.

Hate to say it.... But the Gen 4's design also played a big role in keeping people away... the other items you list above also played a role along with mounting costs to keep the car current to government standards.

[Rob13567]

Originally Posted by Noob

at 2:15 she´s on throttle and paddle the upshift. It seems really quick for my taste, faster than the ZF in Mustang, ok its a bit old now.
She´s right in saying a hydraulic steering is the best you can have for feeling the road and what´s going on. And i know she´s a big Challenger fan which have that "old" fashioned and more expensive steering.
I like Emme

the mustang has a ZF transmission?

[terri_Lovehands]

I'm sorry but I think the 4th gen failed because it was a pretty ugly looking car! This camaro isn't gonna have that problem