[YourBlindingBias]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

My point was usuable horsepower, electronics need to be employed to take motor out of the drivetrain to move these cars in an attempt to use the available HP under all circumstances.....that's a fact.

A tidbit from Ford itself....just FYI.....

“It might just seem like we’re putting a bigger engine into the car. But it’s been a balanced approach through and through,” said Jamal Hameedi, SVT chief engineer. “We’ve completely redone the car to be even more sophisticated in terms of handling and control than the prior model.”
Other keys for improved traction management include:
Torsen limited-slip differential:When customers order the optional Performance Package, they will get a Torsen limited-slip differential that helps the rear suspension deliver maximum torque and traction better and longer under track conditions
Launch control: A new launch control system lets drivers set the desired launch rpm depending on tire temperature, street surface or other conditions. Unique to SVT’s launch control is that it is integrated with both the engine control and traction control."

Exactly and they improved launch control and traction control so do they not have it under control? we won't know till the reviews come out, but you can bet any car with 500+ hp no matter what is on it is going to have traction issues with the wrong driver. Some people talk like the ZL1 won't even peel it's tires because of the MR suspension lol

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

Exactly and they improved launch control and traction control so do they not have it under control? we won't know till the reviews come out, but you can bet any car with 500+ hp no matter what is on it is going to have traction issues with the wrong driver. Some people talk like the ZL1 won't even peel it's tires because of the MR suspension lol

Not MR...PTM. ...as long as you use the best suited mode to the driver - it's going to be very hard to lose control of the car.

[YourBlindingBias]

Oh trust me, for some people it's very easy! lol
But it sounds like the car comes with the technology to ensure you will be OK, advanced stuff is good like some of the features the GTR has. should be friendly to "newer" drivers of 500+ hp cars.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

Oh trust me, for some people it's very easy! lol
But it sounds like the car comes with the technology to ensure you will be OK, advanced stuff is good like some of the features the GTR has. should be friendly to "newer" drivers of 500+ hp cars.

Definitely.

I look at it as "training wheels"....

PTM 2 is for beginners...maximum nannies to reign in the car. PTM 3 is a little less restrictive...call it a medium...PTM 4 is for skilled drivers on a new track (more apt to make emergency maneuvers)...and PTM 5 is for lap records.

[Modern07]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Back to the OP's information, I'm pretty sure that track has been closed down indefinitely. Not sure how anyone would be running there in April. Check your sources.

Are you sure?

Any links to this story?

I don't think that's accurate but I'm ready to be proved wrong

[OldScoolCamaro]

....there is a diminishing return in increasing horsepower on street cars....these cars can't hook up from the factory as produced, on street tires, no matter which factory makes them, or what factory suspension harware improvents they place on them, or how they advertise it, without the aid of electronics and computers. Horsepower/torque, at the levels they are now producing, needs to be taken out of the motor and drivetrain, reducing available horsepower and torque to the rear wheels, (thereby negating the monstous advertised horsepower) to get any kind of traction from a drag race launch and run without making serious suspension and traction improvements to the frame, chassis etc...which would make the car a real drag race machine and take it away from being a street car....thus voiding the warranty. It's a high wire tightrope balancing act. In a pure sense of observation, what good is 580....650, or whatever HP if you can't use it at full potential? It's coming down not to horsepower, but who can engineer and integrate software, computers, and electronics to the motor, suspension and drivetrain to manage and limit slip (taking HP away from the motor).

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by Modern07

Are you sure?

Any links to this story?

I don't think that's accurate but I'm ready to be proved wrong

I think that someone is spreading misinformation. The Nurburging has not been closed. Here's a link to its 2012 events:

http://www.nuerburgring.de/en/events...ll-events.html

[htron50]

Several things.
1) The Rings times make a difference because they DO reflect on the reputation
2) The endurance capabilities of the ZL1 are near the "pinnacle"...
3) The ZL1 is already at 12.0 1/4th on stock tires in less than desirable weather which tells you that "the best is yet to come".... When has the GM announced time ever been the fastest achieved? Pretty rare.
4) And, if you buy my "reputation" argument (#1 above), there is one final argument that I have based on what Mr. Carroll Shelby himself states. I'll just have to let you guess at what that is - to protect the innocent.

[Modern07]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

The Nurburging has not been closed. Here's a link to its 2012 events:

http://www.nuerburgring.de/en/events...ll-events.html

Thats what I thought - I'm fairly sure the nurburgring closing would have been something I'd heard about!

Hopefully tooslow can clarify what was meant by the post...

[ffrcobra_65]

ahhhhh another fine ZL1 vs GT500 thread and everyone is an expert.

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

....there is a diminishing return in increasing horsepower on street cars....these cars can't hook up from the factory as produced, on street tires, no matter which factory makes them, or what factory suspension harware improvents they place on them, or how they advertise it, without the aid of electronics and computers. Horsepower/torque, at the levels they are now producing, needs to be taken out of the motor and drivetrain, reducing available horsepower and torque to the rear wheels, (thereby negating the monstous advertised horsepower) to get any kind of traction from a drag race launch and run without making serious suspension and traction improvements to the frame, chassis etc...which would make the car a real drag race machine and take it away from being a street car....thus voiding the warranty. It's a high wire tightrope balancing act. In a pure sense of observation, what good is 580....650, or whatever HP if you can't use it at full potential? It's coming down not to horsepower, but who can engineer and integrate software, computers, and electronics to the motor, suspension and drivetrain to manage and limit slip (taking HP away from the motor).

You're right, they are having more and more difficulty *to an extent* to hook up on stock tires.

But, which would you rather pay 55K for?

A car that uses all of it's power and runs a low 12 with very little room for improvement, or a car that has so much more potential on a set of DRs, but can only manage a low 12 on the tires it came with.

I don't know about you, but I'd take the power that can't be totally utilized stock.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

Well of course I am speaking of stateside being where I am.
I'm just wondering why people are so obsessed over ring times if they don't track their car or won't fly to germany to run on the track it was tested on.

its the same reason are so obsessed over HP numbers from the factory and 1/4 times even if the majority of owners will never maximize the cars potential.

the GT500 is going to sell a lot of cars for one reason and one reason only. 650hp. the majority of people buying the car will never take it to the track (much like the camaro). All they care about is they own the "top dog" HP wise


The majority of owners want to brag about their car, whether they openly admit it or not.

and the OEM's cater to that.

Remember when the newer mustangs came out? their v6 got 1 more mpg than the camaro. and I can guarantee you that one little number helped sway people's decisions.

its all about the numbers. doesnt matter if you or I can replicate it. Someone did, somewhere. and thats all that matters to most.

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

It is a catch-all, very demanding track. It has aspects of most every other track you can find on earth. It does not necessarily favor high horsepower, quick acceleration, good braking, top speed, traction, or good low speed or high speed handling individually - you have to have the entire package to do well. The track is not necessarily smooth so it is challenging in that regard for both car and driver.

Chances are if you do well at the ring, you will do well most anywhere. This does not mean the order of lap times will hold true for any track in the world because some tracks ARE biased to top speed, good acceleration, handling, etc. But a good ring time means you got things right and the car is balanced. Just because a ZR1 beats a GT-R at the ring doesn’t mean it will happen everywhere.

The other thing is that the ring times can’t be taken down to the tenth of a second, even though many cars are very close in their times. We all know that driver, weather, etc. can change lap times. So if the ZL1 beats the GT500 by 2 seconds, for example, I’d call it a wash. The best you could do is have the same driver on the same day run both cars back to back a few times and perhaps average the laps but this will never happen. For this reason, the order can’t really be taken as a rule but more of a guideline. Maybe look at it as ‘tiers’ – Cars under 7:30 = Tier 1, Cars under 7:50 = Tier 2 for example. It is an exercise in marketing if one car beats another by 1 second to say it is faster, but that is the nature of racing in general.

So although many US drivers will never take their car to the ring, having a good time there can give confidence to any track they might go to. It is like the ¼ mile statistic in a sense except that road course ‘performance’ is much harder to quantify and the best we can do is go to the (one of if not the) most demanding track on earth as a ‘standard’ of sorts. The ring is simply the most widely accepted standard for measuring road course performance in the world.

[Wondering]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Back to the OP's information, I'm pretty sure that track has been closed down indefinitely. Not sure how anyone would be running there in April. Check your sources.

Correct,the Nurburgring will NOT be open this year for any testing by anybody. F1 has already pulled their race due to the poor racing surface and the last I heard the 'Ring was ~$400 mil in debt.

The government is in control of it now & at this time has no plans to reopen it.

[YourBlindingBias]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

You're right, they are having more and more difficulty *to an extent* to hook up on stock tires.

But, which would you rather pay 55K for?

A car that uses all of it's power and runs a low 12 with very little room for improvement, or a car that has so much more potential on a set of DRs, but can only manage a low 12 on the tires it came with.

I don't know about you, but I'd take the power that can't be totally utilized stock.

Do you really think people don't buy new tires for their own purposes? lol