[PeeBee]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

Well of course I am speaking of stateside being where I am.
I'm just wondering why people are so obsessed over ring times if they don't track their car or won't fly to germany to run on the track it was tested on.

Not "obsessed" with it, but it's a good measure of how a car performs overall.
From a manufacturer's point of view I can understand perfectly well. If a car performs well there, it'll perform well almost everywhere. With the Ring, they have a "playground" with all the features to test car handling at one location...

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

Not why not, that's cool they test at the ring.
But people hold it to such high regard that they would ignore stateside track times in favor of ring times. If the ZL1 ran awesome at laguna sec would there be such a celebration and quoting all the time?

I understand your point, but it a lot of it really boils down to marketing. Ring times are now the world standard and are what most people in the US, and especially around the globe, are familiar with.

You're right that releasing an awesome Leguna Seca time would have less impact than an awesome ring time, that's just the way it is.

And I don't believe using the ring is pure marketing and hype. That track, unlike pretty much any track in the world truly tests all of a vehicles performance capabilities. There's a reason why it is the standard.

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

Well of course I am speaking of stateside being where I am.
I'm just wondering why people are so obsessed over ring times if they don't track their car or won't fly to germany to run on the track it was tested on.

It is a catch-all, very demanding track. It has aspects of most every other track you can find on earth. It does not necessarily favor high horsepower, quick acceleration, good braking, top speed, traction, or good low speed or high speed handling individually - you have to have the entire package to do well. The track is not necessarily smooth so it is challenging in that regard for both car and driver.

Chances are if you do well at the ring, you will do well most anywhere. This does not mean the order of lap times will hold true for any track in the world because some tracks ARE biased to top speed, good acceleration, handling, etc. But a good ring time means you got things right and the car is balanced. Just because a ZR1 beats a GT-R at the ring doesn’t mean it will happen everywhere.

The other thing is that the ring times can’t be taken down to the tenth of a second, even though many cars are very close in their times. We all know that driver, weather, etc. can change lap times. So if the ZL1 beats the GT500 by 2 seconds, for example, I’d call it a wash. The best you could do is have the same driver on the same day run both cars back to back a few times and perhaps average the laps but this will never happen. For this reason, the order can’t really be taken as a rule but more of a guideline. Maybe look at it as ‘tiers’ – Cars under 7:30 = Tier 1, Cars under 7:50 = Tier 2 for example. It is an exercise in marketing if one car beats another by 1 second to say it is faster, but that is the nature of racing in general.

So although many US drivers will never take their car to the ring, having a good time there can give confidence to any track they might go to. It is like the ¼ mile statistic in a sense except that road course ‘performance’ is much harder to quantify and the best we can do is go to the (one of if not the) most demanding track on earth as a ‘standard’ of sorts. The ring is simply the most widely accepted standard for measuring road course performance in the world.

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

It is a catch-all, very demanding track. It has aspects of most every other track you can find on earth. It does not necessarily favor high horsepower, quick acceleration, good braking, top speed, traction, or good low speed or high speed handling individually - you have to have the entire package to do well. The track is not necessarily smooth so it is challenging in that regard for both car and driver.

Chances are if you do well at the ring, you will do well most anywhere. This does not mean the order of lap times will hold true for any track in the world because some tracks ARE biased to top speed, good acceleration, handling, etc. But a good ring time means you got things right and the car is balanced. Just because a ZR1 beats a GT-R at the ring doesn’t mean it will happen everywhere.

The other thing is that the ring times can’t be taken down to the tenth of a second, even though many cars are very close in their times. We all know that driver, weather, etc. can change lap times. So if the ZL1 beats the GT500 by 2 seconds, for example, I’d call it a wash. The best you could do is have the same driver on the same day run both cars back to back a few times and perhaps average the laps but this will never happen. For this reason, the order can’t really be taken as a rule but more of a guideline. Maybe look at it as ‘tiers’ – Cars under 7:30 = Tier 1, Cars under 7:50 = Tier 2 for example.

So although many US drivers will never take their car to the ring, having a good time there can give confidence to any track they might go to. It is like the ¼ mile statistic in a sense except that road course ‘performance’ is much harder to quantify and the best we can do is go to the (one of if not the) most demanding track on earth as a ‘standard’ of sorts. The ring is simply the most widely accepted standard for measuring road course performance in the world.

What he said

[OldJedi]

I agree, very well said.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

It is a catch-all, very demanding track. It has aspects of most every other track you can find on earth. It does not necessarily favor high horsepower, quick acceleration, good braking, top speed, traction, or good low speed or high speed handling individually - you have to have the entire package to do well. The track is not necessarily smooth so it is challenging in that regard for both car and driver.

Chances are if you do well at the ring, you will do well most anywhere. This does not mean the order of lap times will hold true for any track in the world because some tracks ARE biased to top speed, good acceleration, handling, etc. But a good ring time means you got things right and the car is balanced. Just because a ZR1 beats a GT-R at the ring doesn’t mean it will happen everywhere.

The other thing is that the ring times can’t be taken down to the tenth of a second, even though many cars are very close in their times. We all know that driver, weather, etc. can change lap times. So if the ZL1 beats the GT500 by 2 seconds, for example, I’d call it a wash. The best you could do is have the same driver on the same day run both cars back to back a few times and perhaps average the laps but this will never happen. For this reason, the order can’t really be taken as a rule but more of a guideline. Maybe look at it as ‘tiers’ – Cars under 7:30 = Tier 1, Cars under 7:50 = Tier 2 for example. It is an exercise in marketing if one car beats another by 1 second to say it is faster, but that is the nature of racing in general.

So although many US drivers will never take their car to the ring, having a good time there can give confidence to any track they might go to. It is like the ¼ mile statistic in a sense except that road course ‘performance’ is much harder to quantify and the best we can do is go to the (one of if not the) most demanding track on earth as a ‘standard’ of sorts. The ring is simply the most widely accepted standard for measuring road course performance in the world.

Post of the day.

[radz28]

@ motorhead

LOL!!! Nice

The 'Ring, IMO, has become the benchmark of overall car performance. I won't pretend to suggest I'll ever go there, let alone get close to consistantly pushing ZL1 to it's limits, however, it's another point to benchrace, which is a lot of what this particular hobby/obsession is about. I think it's great that it's going there, and it would seem to me this is where they're going to establish it's fast times. We know it's been there before, so it seems to me they're probably pretty comfortable with their powertrain and chassis systems and are ready to put their money where their mouth is.

I've been thinking, despite the mass of CAMARO, that it's on a superior chassis to the Mustang. With ZL1 being considerably down on power and having more weight, I'm wondering what all it's technology will do to keep it competitive. If there was a measure of the quality of the car, and justification for it's weight, I think we've come to the point to where we're either going to see a payoff or maybe find a little disappointment in some cases.

Personally - I think it's going to be pretty tough. My decision won't be swayed by the results though

[GoldenBear]

IOM, don't you know that you are totally wrong with your analysis?

Isn't it obvious from most of our Mustang "friends" that until the 2013 GT500 posts a faster lap time at the Nurburgring than the ZL1 did, that Nurburgring lap times don't mean anything. Then, if the 2013 GT500 posts a faster time, a Nurburgring lap time will be the most important benchmark by which any car can possibly be measured.

[YourBlindingBias]

I think if the ZL1 posted a bad time at the "ring" nobody would be talking about it so much lol and there would be more "who cares about the ring" posts than how important the ring is.

[EvilZL1]

ZL1>GT500

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

IOM, don't you know that you are totally wrong with your analysis?

Isn't it obvious from most of our Mustang "friends" that until the 2013 GT500 posts a faster lap time at the Nurburgring than the ZL1 did, that Nurburgring lap times don't mean anything. Then, if the 2013 GT500 posts a faster time, a Nurburgring lap time will be the most important benchmark by which any car can possibly be measured.

That's true, GoldenBear. But ZL1 fans will then have the GT500 fans right where they want them because they will have finally admitted it is a valid test of a car. ZL1 fans can say that the GT500 had to go there twice just to beat ZL1 it so it doesn't count until the ZL1 goes a second time. You have to compare apples to apples, after all. Er, I mean compare apples to moon rocks if it supports your argument.

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

I think if the ZL1 posted a bad time at the "ring" nobody would be talking about it so much lol and there would be more "who cares about the ring" posts than how important the ring is.

You are probably right. I assume this is the general consensus on the ‘other’ forums given the opinions those who have found there way here. That doesn’t mean the ring is any less valid.

If the GT500 didn’t have 650 HP nobody would be talking about that either, but it does. ZL1 guys will naturally try to play that down or point out its other weaknesses. That doesn’t mean ZL1 guys wouldn’t want 650 HP on the ZL1.

The hands are dealt, let’s see how it all plays out.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

ford made improvements on the 2013 suspension, it's not the same as previous models, and you're right at this point it's all IF'S, so I wouldn't say anything for sure because it's all just assumptions or what they call "bench racing".

My point was usuable horsepower, electronics need to be employed to take motor out of the drivetrain to move these cars in an attempt to use the available HP under all circumstances.....that's a fact.

A tidbit from Ford itself....just FYI.....

“It might just seem like we’re putting a bigger engine into the car. But it’s been a balanced approach through and through,” said Jamal Hameedi, SVT chief engineer. “We’ve completely redone the car to be even more sophisticated in terms of handling and control than the prior model.”
Other keys for improved traction management include:
Torsen limited-slip differential:When customers order the optional Performance Package, they will get a Torsen limited-slip differential that helps the rear suspension deliver maximum torque and traction better and longer under track conditions
Launch control: A new launch control system lets drivers set the desired launch rpm depending on tire temperature, street surface or other conditions. Unique to SVT’s launch control is that it is integrated with both the engine control and traction control."

[tooslow]

Back to the OP's information, I'm pretty sure that track has been closed down indefinitely. Not sure how anyone would be running there in April. Check your sources.