[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Mark R

However, GM provided a channel in the hood of the Camaro to accommodate a strut tower brace for a reason: Either to sell an aftermarket accessory, or improve the chassis stiffness.

They did it for the vert, see the chief engineer's comment here.

[Camfab]

Originally Posted by Mark R

Why add a front strut tower brace, when the rear control arms are so flexy? There is more stiffness available by upgrading them first. They are the low hanging fruit.

However, GM provided a channel in the hood of the Camaro to accommodate a strut tower brace for a reason: Either to sell an aftermarket accessory, or improve the chassis stiffness.

Although to the average person, myself included, the OEM arms do look thin, my guess is that they are perfect and you’re only adding weight to the rear of your car. Those same arms are used on the Pratt and Whitney GT-4.R Camaro’s. The aftermarket has nothing on the engineers who designed the Camaro’s suspension.

I might add that there is no strut tower brace either.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...-camaro-gt4-r/

[Mark R]

Originally Posted by Camfab

Although to the average person, myself included, the OEM arms do look thin, my guess is that they are perfect and you’re only adding weight to the rear of your car. Those same arms are used on the Pratt and Whitney GT-4.R Camaro’s. The aftermarket has nothing on the engineers who designed the Camaro’s suspension.

I might add that there is no strut tower brace either.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...-camaro-gt4-r/

I'm going to respectfully disagree that the suspension arms are "perfect." Those suspension arms were engineered to a price point, full stop. Look under any supercar, and you will not see those types of stamped steel suspension arms. I also forgot to mention that the rear cradle bushings are also a big issue when it comes to chassis stiffness and rear suspension control, and the BMR cradle bushing lockout kit, or solid bushings, solves that very well.

I have the cradle bushing lockout, all the rear suspension arms and toe rods, cradle brace, mid chassis brace and strut tower brace. The car is much more planted and stable, and the left-right transition is quite sharp, whereas before, the rear of the car would hesitate when the wheel was turned sharply.

BMR has an under car camera detailing all the movement under there, which their products solve.

[Camfab]

Mark, yes the solid bushings are a must, however they are not the subject here. Did you look at the GT-4.R suspension pics? Enough said

[hawk02]

As a former owner of a 2017 ZL1 and now a 2023 CT5-V Blackwing owner, I can tell you the 5BW has noticeably less body roll than the ZL1. Tony Roma, chief engineer for Cadillac, told Jay Leno the strut tower brace is there to stiffen the chassis further.

In my opinion, there a three changes that make the 5BW a significant improvement over the ZL1

1. Alpha 2 Chassis
2. 4th Generation Mag Ride Shocks
3. Wideband O2 sensors

[SFV1LE]

Originally Posted by hawk02

As a former owner of a 2017 ZL1 and now a 2023 CT5-V Blackwing owner, I can tell you the 5BW has noticeably less body roll than the ZL1. Tony Roma, chief engineer for Cadillac, told Jay Leno the strut tower brace is there to stiffen the chassis further.

In my opinion, there a three changes that make the 5BW a significant improvement over the ZL1

1. Alpha 2 Chassis
2. 4th Generation Mag Ride Shocks
3. Wideband O2 sensors

If the CT5V BW is a significant improvement over the ZL1, I'd like to know what holistic improvement those 3 things listed combine to deliver.

Stock for stock, same driver, same tires, lap times on a challenging road course are the true measure of significant improvement for one high performance car vs another. Have you seen lap time improvements in the CT5V BW vs your old ZL1?

Randy Pobst did a 1:28 best time at Willow Springs in a new CT5V BW... my friend is a skilled driver but no Randy Pobst and puts down 1:26s at Willow Springs in his 100% stock ZL1 (non-1LE, no aero) on used tires. I do 1:28s at Big Willow in my 2018 ZLE manual on worn 3Rs.

Are you saying the CT5V BW is more luxurious or easy to drive? Body roll? How are you measuring that? ZL1 is no GT3RS, but a few spec Corvette racers chasing me on track have said they're amazed how flat the ZL1 (a damn cheap Camaro!) stays in corners. Do the wideband O2s make CT5V run smoother? I never see knock or limp mode with my ZLE after years of track abuse on many 90 deg + days, and my DSSVs give me 1.2+ G cornering all day.

The CT5V BW definitely does not out-perform the 5 year older ZL1, 1LE or non-1LE. But I bet it's a lot more comfortable for you and passengers.

CT5VBW is a very cool 4 door, but for the same price you can have a Model S Plaid that beats it on track and almost any hyper-car in a straight line

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

If the CT5V BW is a significant improvement over the ZL1, I'd like to know what holistic improvement those 3 things listed combine to deliver.

Stock for stock, same driver, same tires, lap times on a challenging road course are the true measure of significant improvement for one high performance car vs another. Have you seen lap time improvements in the CT5V BW vs your old ZL1?

Randy Pobst did a 1:28 best time at Willow Springs in a new CT5V BW... my friend is a skilled driver but no Randy Pobst and puts down 1:26s at Willow Springs in his 100% stock ZL1 (non-1LE, no aero) on used tires. I do 1:28s at Big Willow in my 2018 ZLE manual on worn 3Rs.

Are you saying the CT5V BW is more luxurious or easy to drive? Body roll? How are you measuring that? ZL1 is no GT3RS, but a few spec Corvette racers chasing me on track have said they're amazed how flat the ZL1 (a damn cheap Camaro!) stays in corners. Do the wideband O2s make CT5V run smoother? I never see knock or limp mode with my ZLE after years of track abuse on many 90 deg + days, and my DSSVs give me 1.2+ G cornering all day.

The CT5V BW definitely does not out-perform the 5 year older ZL1, 1LE or non-1LE. But I bet it's a lot more comfortable for you and passengers.

CT5VBW is a very cool 4 door, but for the same price you can have a Model S Plaid that beats it on track and almost any hyper-car in a straight line

I was in agreement until you went from talking about cornering between the CT5 Blackwing and ZL1 to then talking about a comparison between a CT5 Blackwing vs Plaid....does the Plaid corner better than the Blackwing lap after lap? No. Is the Plaid faster than the Blackwing at VIR? No. Even with the brake upgrade on the Plaid (which is $10k by the way) the Blackwing is still faster

I could spend a lot less and get a S1000R or H2 and be faster in a straight line......

[SFV1LE]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

I was in agreement until you went from talking about cornering between the CT5 Blackwing and ZL1 to then talking about a comparison between a CT5 Blackwing vs Plaid....does the Plaid corner better than the Blackwing lap after lap? No. Is the Plaid faster than the Blackwing at VIR? No. Even with the brake upgrade on the Plaid (which is $10k by the way) the Blackwing is still faster

I could spend a lot less and get a S1000R or H2 and be faster in a straight line......

The Plaid driven by Randy Pobst at Willow Springs, back to back vs the CT5V BW and the M5, was faster than both. It corners well enough for a 1:27 on a track that demands very good handling and the far better acceleration on straights helps it overcome the weight and handling deficit vs CTV5 BW and M5.

Who tested the Plaid vs CT5VBW at VIR, was this a back to back test same driver, or a C&D LL test? LL tests are good but not = to a RP head to head at WS IMO.

https://youtu.be/oOmd_VKp4tw?si=J_ns8n5oDVt711ce

There is a kit, an expensive kit, that helped the Plaid set the street legal car record at Willow Springs--the Model S-APEX Plaid did a 1:20, this is faster than any hyper car you can buy from anyone ever. This shows the true potential of this platform and chassis.

The previous WS record is 1:21 in a GT2 RS, by Randy Pobst. There is nothing STREET LEGAL you can do to a CT5V BW to come close to this Tesla Plaid time--I doubt a trailered CTV5BW gutted, straight piped, caged, Manuson 2650 tuned on VP C16, running 4 way Ohlins with massive aero could do this... but maybe.

You're quoting what you can do in an S1000R or H2? 1) we're talking about cars vs cars :-), and we're talking about what a much heavier 4 door comparable to CT5VBW does in straight line vs virtually every other street legal car including an AMG 1, AM Valkyrie, Bug Chiron.

That said, I don't want or need a Model S or a CT5V BW, I'm just looking at the most reliable facts about these 2 cool 4-doors at this point in time... for now the non-track intended Tesla wins the track test by Randy Pobst.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

The Plaid driven by Randy Pobst at Willow Springs, back to back vs the CT5V BW and the M5, was faster than both. It corners well enough for a 1:27 on a track that demands very good handling and the far better acceleration on straights helps it overcome the weight and handling deficit vs CTV5 BW and M5.

Who tested the Plaid vs CT5VBW at VIR, was this a back to back test same driver, or a C&D LL test? LL tests are good but not = to a RP head to head at WS IMO.

https://youtu.be/oOmd_VKp4tw?si=J_ns8n5oDVt711ce

There is a kit, an expensive kit, that helped the Plaid set the street legal car record at Willow Springs--the Model S-APEX Plaid did a 1:20, this is faster than any hyper car you can buy from anyone ever. This shows the true potential of this platform and chassis.

The previous WS record is 1:21 in a GT2 RS, by Randy Pobst. There is nothing STREET LEGAL you can do to a CT5V BW to come close to this Tesla Plaid time--I doubt a trailered CTV5BW gutted, straight piped, caged, Manuson 2650 tuned on VP C16, running 4 way Ohlins with massive aero could do this... but maybe.

You're quoting what you can do in an S1000R or H2? 1) we're talking about cars vs cars :-), and we're talking about what a much heavier 4 door comparable to CT5VBW does in straight line vs virtually every other street legal car including an AMG 1, AM Valkyrie, Bug Chiron.

That said, I don't want or need a Model S or a CT5V BW, I'm just looking at the most reliable facts about these 2 cool 4-doors at this point in time... for now the non-track intended Tesla wins the track test by Randy Pobst.

And if you watch the video, where they have all 3 side by side....which car is in the lead for about 75% of the time? The Blackwing. The ONLY reason why the Plaid finished ahead was because of the long straight and that 1000HP. Yes, it handled well but that 1000HP and instant power helps.

The time I mentioned was on VIR was done by Johan Schwartz. Still, the Blackwing beat it after it had the brake upgrade.

Street legal? You can have a roll cage, weight reduction, extra power, suspension upgrades, etc, etc and STILL be street legal. Every seen street legal 7 second 1/4 mile cars? They are out there and been around for years.

And you can shave 7 seconds off of the Plaid's Willow Springs time by spending.......$250k? Yea, you could do that in the Blackwing or M5 for much cheaper.

I'm bringing the realization more down to Earth. How many people (on this forum) can buy a true hypercar? How many of those hypercars were ever made? Yes, the Plaid can duke it out with those hypercars. If I had the money, I would own a Plaid and many other hypercars but would enjoy the hypercars much, much more.

[SFV1LE]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

And if you watch the video, where they have all 3 side by side....which car is in the lead for about 75% of the time? The Blackwing. The ONLY reason why the Plaid finished ahead was because of the long straight and that 1000HP. Yes, it handled well but that 1000HP and instant power helps.

The time I mentioned was on VIR was done by Johan Schwartz. Still, the Blackwing beat it after it had the brake upgrade.

Street legal? You can have a roll cage, weight reduction, extra power, suspension upgrades, etc, etc and STILL be street legal. Every seen street legal 7 second 1/4 mile cars? They are out there and been around for years.

And you can shave 7 seconds off of the Plaid's Willow Springs time by spending.......$250k? Yea, you could do that in the Blackwing or M5 for much cheaper.

I'm bringing the realization more down to Earth. How many people (on this forum) can buy a true hypercar? How many of those hypercars were ever made? Yes, the Plaid can duke it out with those hypercars. If I had the money, I would own a Plaid and many other hypercars but would enjoy the hypercars much, much more.

Every track has at least 1+ long straight where the same thing happens, and $5k in suspension mods + track pads will fix the Plaid handling deficit.

I live in CA so I can ski, surf and drive on a track in the same day... and have a choice of 6 great tracks year round within a 1/2-day drive.

There are no CA street legal CT5V BW or ZL1s in CA with power mods that will match the Apex Plaid and do 1:20 at WS ever. Modded electric cars will never have that limitation in any state ever.

A "track car" the size and weight of the CT5VBW is fun to try, but IMO only makes sense if you MUST have only one car :-) Can't carry enough of my stuff (skis, wheels, gear), can't get decent mileage for road trips, can't get me through a blizzard, can't handle well enough for the track. That's why I have an SUV for daily and and a ZL1 for fun.

The Plaid is not a 4 door track car, just a great 4 door that also happens to beat all the 4 door track cars. I think the Taycan or Lucid Sapphire has one-upped it but both of those cost 2x the Plaid.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

Every track has at least 1+ long straight where the same thing happens, and $5k in suspension mods + track pads will fix the Plaid handling deficit.

I live in CA so I can ski, surf and drive on a track in the same day... and have a choice of 6 great tracks year round within a 1/2-day drive.

There are no CA street legal CT5V BW or ZL1s in CA with power mods that will match the Apex Plaid and do 1:20 at WS ever. Modded electric cars will never have that limitation in any state ever.

A "track car" the size and weight of the CT5VBW is fun to try, but IMO only makes sense if you MUST have only one car :-) Can't carry enough of my stuff (skis, wheels, gear), can't get decent mileage for road trips, can't get me through a blizzard, can't handle well enough for the track. That's why I have an SUV for daily and and a ZL1 for fun.

The Plaid is not a 4 door track car, just a great 4 door that also happens to beat all the 4 door track cars. I think the Taycan or Lucid Sapphire has one-upped it but both of those cost 2x the Plaid.

But the Apex Model S Plaid costs $250k on top of what the car costs. They did the exact same mods every car can do minus power upgrades. Suspension, brakes wheels, tires, and weight reduction. The Plaid is fast. I'm not disagreeing but it's only equally as fast as the M5 and Blackwing thanks to that 1000HP. Drop it down to 700 and see how it does then.

I'd rather have a gas vehicle, at this point in time, over an EV for a track car. Why? Because I can bring my own gas or go fill up at the track in between sessions vs having 1 session then having to charge up the car and MAYBE get 1 more session in before the day is done.

You also can't base your judgement because of CA silly laws. There are people who get their cars impounded in CA for a 100% stock car because the exhaust is "too loud".

You can do the same stuff to the Blackwing (with no power mods) and shave time off. 7 seconds worth? Maybe. Will I'd cost $250k? No.

The CT5 Blackwing handles pretty well compare strictly to a ZL1. As they are similar in power. I'm not comparing a 1000HP EV with instant power to this. Now if it WAS 600-700HP then I would.

[Camfab]

Vigilante, I don’t really believe the “my car got impounded for stock exhaust” , stories that get circulated. There is always more to the story. 35 years ago when I was an idiot and street raced every day, I got a ticket for excessive noise. There was a helluva lot more going on, that was a gift. Don’t buy into the BS, people in CA get away with a lot more here than most states where crime is low and the cops are bored. You get idiots doing takeovers, stealing cars, and inciting mayhem here and the police can’t and don’t do a thing.

[hawk02]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

If the CT5V BW is a significant improvement over the ZL1, I'd like to know what holistic improvement those 3 things listed combine to deliver.

Stock for stock, same driver, same tires, lap times on a challenging road course are the true measure of significant improvement for one high performance car vs another. Have you seen lap time improvements in the CT5V BW vs your old ZL1?

Randy Pobst did a 1:28 best time at Willow Springs in a new CT5V BW... my friend is a skilled driver but no Randy Pobst and puts down 1:26s at Willow Springs in his 100% stock ZL1 (non-1LE, no aero) on used tires. I do 1:28s at Big Willow in my 2018 ZLE manual on worn 3Rs.

Are you saying the CT5V BW is more luxurious or easy to drive? Body roll? How are you measuring that? ZL1 is no GT3RS, but a few spec Corvette racers chasing me on track have said they're amazed how flat the ZL1 (a damn cheap Camaro!) stays in corners. Do the wideband O2s make CT5V run smoother? I never see knock or limp mode with my ZLE after years of track abuse on many 90 deg + days, and my DSSVs give me 1.2+ G cornering all day.

The CT5V BW definitely does not out-perform the 5 year older ZL1, 1LE or non-1LE. But I bet it's a lot more comfortable for you and passengers.

CT5VBW is a very cool 4 door, but for the same price you can have a Model S Plaid that beats it on track and almost any hyper-car in a straight line

First off, the Alpha 2 chassis is stiffer than the Alpha chassis. It has a beefier rear cradle than alpha chassis plus the inclusion of the strut tower brace just to name a few differences.

Second, the 4th generation mag ride uses accelerometers instead of ride height position sensors. This provides more accuracy and more exact control for the suspension calibration. It also eliminates the mechanical bits involved with the position sensors which leads to more precision and a better signal to work with at each corner. MR 4.0 also includes an inertial motion unit that measures true heave/roll/pitch signals versus calculated ones in MR 3.0.

Having MR 4.0 in my C8 and Blackwing, I can tell you from experience that it is a significant improvement over the MR 3.0 in the ZL1.

Because of the use of wideband O2 sensors found in GM's global B platform on the C8 and BW, the cars always run in closed loop. This makes fueling more accurate regarding air/fuel ratios and therefore has allowed the GM engineers to increase timing. GM rates the LT4 in the BW as having 18 more hp than the LT4 in the C7 Z06 and ZL1 but I can tell you after driving an M6 ZL1 for almost seven years, the LT4 in my BW has noticeable get-up-and-go over the ZL1. And the BW on average only weighs 125 1LBs more than the ZL1 so there's not a huge weight difference between the two cars.

I know ZL1 owners don't want to hear this but the ZL1 is stuck with older technology, unfortunately. The C8 and Blackwings are getting the latest tech from GM which has a direct impact on performance. There's nothing to argue about that.

[SFV1LE]

Originally Posted by hawk02

First off, the Alpha 2 chassis is stiffer than the Alpha chassis. It has a beefier rear cradle than alpha chassis plus the inclusion of the strut tower brace just to name a few differences.

Second, the 4th generation mag ride uses accelerometers instead of ride height position sensors. This provides more accuracy and more exact control for the suspension calibration. It also eliminates the mechanical bits involved with the position sensors which leads to more precision and a better signal to work with at each corner. MR 4.0 also includes an inertial motion unit that measures true heave/roll/pitch signals versus calculated ones in MR 3.0.

Having MR 4.0 in my C8 and Blackwing, I can tell you from experience that it is a significant improvement over the MR 3.0 in the ZL1.

Because of the use of wideband O2 sensors found in GM's global B platform on the C8 and BW, the cars always run in closed loop. This makes fueling more accurate regarding air/fuel ratios and therefore has allowed the GM engineers to increase timing. GM rates the LT4 in the BW as having 18 more hp than the LT4 in the C7 Z06 and ZL1 but I can tell you after driving an M6 ZL1 for almost seven years, the LT4 in my BW has noticeable get-up-and-go over the ZL1. And the BW on average only weighs 125 1LBs more than the ZL1 so there's not a huge weight difference between the two cars.

I know ZL1 owners don't want to hear this but the ZL1 is stuck with older technology, unfortunately. The C8 and Blackwings are getting the latest tech from GM which has a direct impact on performance. There's nothing to argue about that.

I wasn't debating most of that... the CT5V BW weighs over 4100 lbs, my ZLE starts at 3800 after some minor handling and wheel mods it's lighter. That is over 300 lb diff, that's a lot...

But from a pure performance standpoint, same great driver with same tires, the ZL1 can turn 1:26 or better at WS and the CT5V BW can't and never will. My other friend did a 1:50 at Buttonwillow CW13 in his 100% stock ZLE first day ever there--also something a stock CT5V BW will never come close to. The ZLE is a true sportscar doing world class lap times, the 5 year newer CT5V BW is not a sportscar and will never compete with a ZL1 in this way, same great driver same tires.

Your C8 Vette is another story.

Do your track your cars frequently, ever? If so are you are you putting down top 5-10 lap times on these days? You can't gauge true performance at the limit unless you do this, and thta's what is being discussed here.