[Rusty35]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The fact that there's adverse reaction may be the same, but it's a much bigger step going from fuel injection to electric than it was when we went from carburetion to fuel injection.


I might not have expected quite that much improvement, but back about those 20 years I was actually in the process of swapping an aftermarket multiport EFI system into a car that was originally carbureted (and had been through a couple of carb-based upgrades in the meantime).


All the technology that you can even imagine isn't going to make an EV as much fun or as satisfying to drive as a reasonably quick ICE-powered car with a manual transmission. There's a human element involved with that, for which there is no technological substitute unless one thinks the day will come where your individual internal thoughts and opinions will be forcibly managed from the outside (potentially by others).


Norm

This is a scary thought, but I think it is already here more than most realize.
The media and advertisers mold our thoughts and opinions pretty successfully right now.

Telling me I should like an EV as much as I like a ICE vehicle is the same as telling me I should like golf as much as I like fishing.
I don't enjoy golf and Electric vehicles don't interest me at all.
But I don't think they should do away with golf just because I don't enjoy it.

[wavsine]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

Something about this argument reminds me of how people reacted to the introduction of fuel injection versus carburetion.

Not even close.

Fuel injection was a bolt on component that dramatically improved driveability.

Mass adoption of electric vehicles will require a paradigm shift in infrastructure.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by wavsine

Not even close.

Fuel injection was a bolt on component that dramatically improved driveability.

Mass adoption of electric vehicles will require a paradigm shift in infrastructure.

Exactly.

[Mr. Meh]

And.. some how, Bertha Benz, back in the late 1880s, without the existence of roads for cars, gas stations and mechanics, still some how managed the first "long trip" by gasoline power vehicle... It took a long while for the infrastructure to come up around it to then support the needs of all the cars to come. But, there was a point to where the current ICE was in the same boat as eV is now. We figured out, we managed.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Mr. Meh

And.. some how, Bertha Benz, back in the late 1880s, without the existence of roads for cars, gas stations and mechanics, still some how managed the first "long trip" by gasoline power vehicle... It took a long while for the infrastructure to come up around it to then support the needs of all the cars to come. But, there was a point to where the current ICE was in the same boat as eV is now. We figured out, we managed.

^^^THIS^^^

And it will be the same for what is coming next. We will figure it out and we will manage it. And, the next generations - who will only 'know' (and be familiar with, etc) that which they grow up with - may very well see our cars through the same lens we see people in a horse and buggy today.

Progress and change are inevitable.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Raven87

^^^THIS^^^

And it will be the same for what is coming next. We will figure it out and we will manage it. And, the next generations - who will only 'know' (and be familiar with, etc) that which they grow up with - may very well see our cars through the same lens we see people in a horse and buggy today.

Progress and change are inevitable.

They'll have to pry my manual transmission from my cold, dead right hand and left foot.

[Mr. Meh]

Originally Posted by fastball

They'll have to pry my manual transmission from my cold, dead right hand and left foot.

This whole concept continuously evades and fascinates me.. That this particular human controlled interaction is so highly regarded and sought after, yet, I rarely hear anyone show the same emotional connection to manual brakes, hand cranked engines, lever operated ducting vs an auto thermostated HVAC, a rotary dial phone, a mechanical key to unlock your doors, cable actuated clutches vs your hydraulic one, dealing with the A/F mixtures instead of a computer, etc.. or, even a choke lever inside the cockpit.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Mr. Meh

This whole concept continuously evades and fascinates me.. That this particular human controlled interaction is so highly regarded and sought after, yet, I rarely hear anyone show the same emotional connection to manual brakes, hand cranked engines, lever operated ducting vs an auto thermostated HVAC, a rotary dial phone, a mechanical key to unlock your doors, cable actuated clutches vs your hydraulic one, dealing with the A/F mixtures instead of a computer, etc.. or, even a choke lever inside the cockpit.

Your comparisons are wrong. Those things have nothing to do with the feel and enjoyment of the car. Those were chores. Things you HAD to do to operate a car.

Rowing your own gears with a real stick and a real clutch are things people WANT to do. It's fun. Whether it's modern or antiquated or whatever your idea is, who cares?

And I will tell you what: a family member has a 1938 Ponitac straight 8 with a three on the tree I've driven numerous times. I enjoy driving that more than the automatic Camaros I've driven.

[crazydmc]

Originally Posted by fastball

Your comparisons are wrong. Those things have nothing to do with the feel and enjoyment of the car. Those were chores. Things you HAD to do to operate a car.

Rowing your own gears with a real stick and a real clutch are things people WANT to do. It's fun. Whether it's modern or antiquated or whatever your idea is, who cares?

And I will tell you what: a family member has a 1938 Ponitac straight 8 with a three on the tree I've driven numerous times. I enjoy driving that more than the automatic Camaros I've driven.

even simpler answer is this... it is nostalgic for me. big engine plus manual trans... will be thing of the past soon.

[Mr. Meh]

Originally Posted by fastball

Your comparisons are wrong. Those things have nothing to do with the feel and enjoyment of the car. Those were chores. Things you HAD to do to operate a car.

Rowing your own gears with a real stick and a real clutch are things people WANT to do. It's fun. Whether it's modern or antiquated or whatever your idea is, who cares?

And I will tell you what: a family member has a 1938 Ponitac straight 8 with a three on the tree I've driven numerous times. I enjoy driving that more than the automatic Camaros I've driven.

They're not incorrect comparisons, you just see one set as a chore and the other as enjoyment. Those are emotional constructs being imparted to one and withheld from another. They don't change the underlying fact that they're all human involvement in areas of the car vs a computerized system taking over. Not everyone sees manually rowing gears as a source of enjoyment, but something that was required to be done to operate a vehicle. Plenty have since willingly chosen a mechanically automated or computer automated self perpetuating transmission system, even in times where a manual was still an option for that platform. Which is the original basis of my first statement.

Though, as someone that is also White N Nerdy, I find this love of manual trans curious.. I'd figure you'd for sure be in to the automation and computerization of stuff.. But, I suppose there is also the love of Nixie tubes over LED.

[wavsine]

Originally Posted by Mr. Meh

This whole concept continuously evades and fascinates me.. That this particular human controlled interaction is so highly regarded and sought after, yet, I rarely hear anyone show the same emotional connection to manual brakes, hand cranked engines, lever operated ducting vs an auto thermostated HVAC, a rotary dial phone, a mechanical key to unlock your doors, cable actuated clutches vs your hydraulic one, dealing with the A/F mixtures instead of a computer, etc.. or, even a choke lever inside the cockpit.

Then you don't understand the concept behind BMW and the the driving machine. There is nothing like a stick shift and the sound of a silky smooth engine.

Besides, it builds leg tone.

[Mr. Meh]

Originally Posted by wavsine

Then you don't understand the concept behind BMW and the the driving machine. There is nothing like a stick shift and the sound of a silky smooth engine.

Besides, it builds leg tone.

I've driven plenty of manual high powered cars before. The operation of one in a manual vs one in automatic conveys no variance in enjoyment level of the vehicle.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Mr. Meh

They're not incorrect comparisons, you just see one set as a chore and the other as enjoyment. Those are emotional constructs being imparted to one and withheld from another. They don't change the underlying fact that they're all human involvement in areas of the car vs a computerized system taking over. Not everyone sees manually rowing gears as a source of enjoyment, but something that was required to be done to operate a vehicle. Plenty have since willingly chosen a mechanically automated or computer automated self perpetuating transmission system, even in times where a manual was still an option for that platform. Which is the original basis of my first statement.

Though, as someone that is also White N Nerdy, I find this love of manual trans curious.. I'd figure you'd for sure be in to the automation and computerization of stuff.. But, I suppose there is also the love of Nixie tubes over LED.

They are absolutely incorrect comparisons. What you compared it to were peripheral vehicle operations. The transmission is an essential part of the core of driving. You are just being an unconscionable jerk.

Driving a manual is all about the fun of driving, not about the best 0-60. I know automatics are faster now. I don't care. Most manual enthusiasts don't care. And as far as me being a nerdy guy, I am a biomed engineer and work on modern hospital electronics all day. I also play my Strat through a 1957 Fender Bassman 50 watt tube amp and have a 1965 Rowe jukebox.

I have no idea what that has to do with anything. Again, are you really a jerk like this to your friends and family or just busting my balls?

Oh, and BTW, just so you know, there's plenty of people who make far more money than you or I who pay MILLIONS of dollars for vintage cars with manual cranks, manual chokes, and even manually operated fuel pumps.

MILLIONS of dollars.

[JohnCobalt]

Originally Posted by fastball

I also play my Strat through a 1957 Fender Bassman 50 watt tube amp and have a 1965 Rowe jukebox.
I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

Hells to the ya for the '57 bassman!

I'm not trying to bust any balls, but for me, driving a manual where I live is kind of annoying, unless you can actually shift through the gears. My last manual was a Z51 Stingray 7 speed. I could practically drive all over town in first gear. Do you know how frustrating/annoying that is? I guess what I'm saying is it depends on the car and where you live.
I can't wait to move out west so I don't have to drive on this tiny peninsula teeming with slow-driving tourists.