[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I know this argument will get tossed out, but GM now offers a SS 1LE that can perform at 5th Gen Z/28 levels for about 30K less just a year later after the Z was done.

Valid point but the difference is that the SS 1LE came out as a different year and a different Generation. If Ford does that in the same Generation then it might not go over as well. Maybe it will...

Originally Posted by SuperSound

They could have just stayed at 600hp and locked that up (against the ZL1). Either they thought the Camaro would get the LS9 or they were out to rain on the ZR1's parade. You don't shoot for almost 100hp over your target competitor in that kind of timeframe.

Yes but despite overpowering the ZR1, it doesn't have enough power to beat the ZR1 in a straight line or around a track. It can beat the ZL1 and Z28 tho. I don't think Ford was aiming to take out the ZR1 because that would be a fool's errand. Maybe they did have the goal of beating the ZR1's HP...which at the time was the most powerful. Still tho Ford had to do something to draw an irresistible appeal to the GT500 and I think HP was all they could do. Plus they went back to the old 302/351 displacement days with the 5.0 in the GT and the 5.8 in the GT500.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

The problem with that is to meet the target power range (700+), the engine will undoubtedly be beefed up internally. Not b/c the current Coyote can't handle the power but because of OEM reliability targets. While there may still be some cost savings vs the Voodoo, it would not be a huge deficit because this engine will still be a single use model.

Weight is the other big factor. The '18s had added even more weight and now you are talking about adding FI (which will be worse with a TT setup if true), removing CFs wheels, adding more suspension strength, but still keeping the level of features as the ZL1. That makes for a car that is guaranteed to weight more than a ZL1 currently.

So what you are actually getting is borderline a Hellcat. And we all know just adding power does not make up for weight/suspension/chassis on a track as the Hellcat clearly shows. The new GT500 would need a drastic reduction in weight to add upgrades to beat a ZL1 around the track. And the problem with that is the S550 chassis. It would be much easier to do it if they were doing a chassis change, and that could keep the price low. But as it is, it is asking for way to much to get all the performance and comfort features and keep the price at/under a ZL1 at this point.

Ford is undoubtedly going to have to pick and choose their fights until next gen. My guess is they take the middle road. Offer a GT500 that can beat a Hellcat straight line, but handle as good as the GT350R at a price that splits the two.

As for your last statement, well you know the answer....change of chassis with huge weight savings.

Good points...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

There is zero chance of anyone getting a GT500 at a price anywhere close to a ZL1. For it to be competitive in a straight line it needs over 700 horsepower. I don't think they could make it competitive on a track with the ZL1 1LE for less than 100,000. They ought to wait and launch it in 2021 as an S650. Call whatever this new model is a Mach 1.

C'Mon Man! 100k?

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Valid point but the difference is that the SS 1LE came out as a different year and a different Generation. If Ford does that in the same Generation then it might not go over as well. Maybe it will...

.

Well same generation you had GT to from 4.6 to 5.0 in 10 to 11, then GT500 went from 500 in 09 to 540 in 10,(which essentially made the 09 GT500KR the "base Gt500") to 550 in 11 and 12 to 662 in 13. Not like Ford hasn't done it before, lol

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

It just seems to me, releasing a car that is all around better than the GT350R one year after production for the same price or less doesn't seem like something they can just do. I am not saying they cannot manage it, I am saying it would be a nightmare for GT350R owners to see a GT500 blow their doors off at the strip and the track for the same coin in the same Gen with more options to boot. I would not be shocked if the GT500 is more targeting the straight line performance. I think Ford calls the GT350R a win in regards to its track performance for this Gen. For a few years it was the fastest around a track. They dont have anything that competes at all at the strip, seems like a heavily optioned out boulevard bruiser in the low 4K pound realm with over 700 HP is what we will see from Ford. Something that can hold its own at the track, but by no means its bread and butter.

Yea I have said that about if the GT beats the GT350R. Look at what happened with Z06 owners. They almost blew a gasket when they found out the ZL1 was getting their engine (wet sump version but same engine) AND an A10 trans. Now if Ford puts out a GT500 for the same price as the GT350R and it outperforms the GT350R then there will be a lot of sore owners out there. And I think we'll see the value of the GT350R plummet.

Although, the ZL1 and Z28 didn't really affect each other's sales. Maybe more due to the fact that they both had different purposes and you either bought one for one reason or the other for a different reason. If Ford can pull that off then they might have some hope.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

There is zero chance of anyone getting a GT500 at a price anywhere close to a ZL1. For it to be competitive in a straight line it needs over 700 horsepower. I don't think they could make it competitive on a track with the ZL1 1LE for less than 100,000. They ought to wait and launch it in 2021 as an S650. Call whatever this new model is a Mach 1.

I think what will happen is that Ford will announce it and dealerships will ADM the hell out of the car again. And people will pay it because they'll be soo eager to finally have a Mustang that can beat the Camaros. So regardless of the MSRP, people will be paying way more for a GT500 than for a ZL1.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Although, the ZL1 and Z28 didn't really affect each other's sales. Maybe more due to the fact that they both had different purposes and you either bought one for one reason or the other for a different reason. If Ford can pull that off then they might have some hope.

.

That is also why I think they can do it. Different target markets, some people love the N/A track aspect others love the GT bruiser aspect

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

C'Mon Man! 100k?



Well same generation you had GT to from 4.6 to 5.0 in 10 to 11, then GT500 went from 500 in 09 to 540 in 10,(which essentially made the 09 GT500KR the "base Gt500") to 550 in 11 and 12 to 662 in 13. Not like Ford hasn't done it before, lol

Yes but those were not the same years. Plus the upgraded power came with the new looks (2010)...the extra 10 in 2011 was just a bump. And for 13-14 I think that was more to get people to buy the Mustang instead of holding out for the 15 which would have made sales plummet. Ford seems to always put out something like that in the last two years of a Generation (03-03 Cobra) to maintain sales. But now you're talking about same year, same generation, same price, and one will have to greatly outperform the other in every category. That will be quite different than all the examples you gave.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

C'Mon Man! 100k?

Not for nothin but with markups some of the GT350Rs hit $90K and over $100K...I don't think the MSRP will be that high. But I think with markups it'll be around that price.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Not for nothin but with markups some of the GT350Rs hit $90K and over $100K...I don't think the MSRP will be that high. But I think with markups it'll be around that price.

Yes and the R isn't even in the same ballpark as the ZL1 1LE. For the 500 to compete with the ZL1 1LE it would need massive upgrades at everything. No way they build that kind of car on the 550 platform for less than 100k.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yes but those were not the same years. Plus the upgraded power came with the new looks (2010)...the extra 10 in 2011 was just a bump. And for 13-14 I think that was more to get people to buy the Mustang instead of holding out for the 15 which would have made sales plummet. Ford seems to always put out something like that in the last two years of a Generation (03-03 Cobra) to maintain sales. But now you're talking about same year, same generation, same price, and one will have to greatly outperform the other in every category. That will be quite different than all the examples you gave.

I agree same year would be tough, but I also said I expect 18 to be last year for GT350, and 500 in 19.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Not for nothin but with markups some of the GT350Rs hit $90K and over $100K...I don't think the MSRP will be that high. But I think with markups it'll be around that price.

Yeah with mark ups did, but I thought we were discussing MSRP.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yeah with mark ups did, but I thought we were discussing MSRP.

I said MSRP might not be that high. That would be too close to ZR1 price range. I can see it getting to about $70K-$75K and then with taxes, tags, and markups (if any) being in the mid $80K-$100K OTD.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well same generation you had GT to from 4.6 to 5.0 in 10 to 11, then GT500 went from 500 in 09 to 540 in 10,(which essentially made the 09 GT500KR the "base Gt500") to 550 in 11 and 12 to 662 in 13. Not like Ford hasn't done it before, lol

This is correct, Ford has no problem making a car that will beat last year's car, no matter what the folks who just bought last year's car think. They have done this time and time again. You can't blame them though, they have to compete. In order to compete, you have to keep getting better and better.

I have a friend that has been extremely conservative with his money his whole life, and was able to retire early. As a retirement present for himself, he bought a 2010 GT500, and put it in the garage thinking that it will be worth a bunch of money in the future. He could drive it once in a while, but it would be a nice investment. I told him that it wouldn't necessarily be an investment, because Ford will probably build a faster one the next year or two. But, he was/is a big fan of all the car auction TV shows, and thought that these Halo cars end up being worth a ton because of how rare they become. But, a ton of the cars that sell for big money from back in the day benefited from the gas crisis and emission standards that came into play. It made those cars the fastest for years and years to come. The cars that followed were garbage in comparison for quite some time.

We don't have that now. Just a few years later, Ford put out a GT500 with 662 HP, which was more that 100HP more than his garage queen. He has been trying to sell it for more than a year, and he is only asking $35k. No one has taken him up on the offer, but several have offered $30k. It is low miles and completely babied. Now he doesn't know whether to dump the car and take what he can get, or just stop babying it and drive it. I have been trying to convince him to just drive it and have fun.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I said MSRP might not be that high. That would be too close to ZR1 price range. I can see it getting to about $70K-$75K and then with taxes, tags, and markups (if any) being in the mid $80K-$100K OTD.

I just think it's going to have to come in in the low to mid 60s or its failure. ZL1 starts at 61, hellcat at 62. Ford's step in the ring needs to be in the same ballpark IMO.

BTW been very fun debating/discussing/ bench racing with you and others today

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

This is correct, Ford has no problem making a car that will beat last year's car, no matter what the folks who just bought last year's car think. They have done this time and time again. You can't blame them though, they have to compete. In order to compete, you have to keep getting better and better.

I have a friend that has been extremely conservative with his money his whole life, and was able to retire early. As a retirement present for himself, he bought a 2010 GT500, and put it in the garage thinking that it will be worth a bunch of money in the future. He could drive it once in a while, but it would be a nice investment. I told him that it wouldn't necessarily be an investment, because Ford will probably build a faster one the next year or two. But, he was/is a big fan of all the car auction TV shows, and thought that these Halo cars end up being worth a ton because of how rare they become. But, a ton of the cars that sell for big money from back in the day benefited from the gas crisis and emission standards that came into play. It made those cars the fastest for years and years to come. The cars that followed were garbage in comparison for quite some time.

We don't have that now. Just a few years later, Ford put out a GT500 with 662 HP, which was more that 100HP more than his garage queen. He has been trying to sell it for more than a year, and he is only asking $35k. No one has taken him up on the offer, but several have offered $30k. It is low miles and completely babied. Now he doesn't know whether to dump the car and take what he can get, or just stop babying it and drive it. I have been trying to convince him to just drive it and have fun.

Yep, Ford has had no problem one upping the same model the next year

[72MachOne99GT]

Think about the poor bastards that paid 30-40k mark-ups on ‘07 Shelbys.

Or the guy that bought a 2010 GT.

[Mr. Meh]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

Think about the poor bastards that paid 30-40k mark-ups on ‘07 Shelbys.

Or the guy that bought a 2010 GT.

Yep, there's a post on a Chevy SS Facebook group from someone in Az trying to sell a new ZL1 1LE for 96K...

I'm sure someone will pot the money for it.. but that's just insane.