[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

There's a problem with that line of thought, the LSA which was used in ZL1 was first used in the '09 CTS-V with only 556hp. The LS9 which was used in the C6 ZR1 came out at the same time had 638hp and was never used in the Camaro. The LSA was never used in a Vette. So either Ford set the wrong engine target (LS9 instead of LSA) or they weren't after the ZL1 anyway and were out to one up the LS9 in the ZR1.

Or they had to completely dominate the field to justify the GT500. The ZL1 showed up with 30 more hp than the GT500 at that time (2012). Plus it had way more creature comforts, IRS, MRC, and was on the 5th Gen body style which at the time was the hottest thing. So to make the GT500 more appealing than the more powerful ZL1 with more features they had to shoot for the stars. And they did. If the GT500 had stayed at 550 or even had just a slight jump to match the ZL1's output at the time it wouldn't have gone well. So offer the most powerful engine (at that time) and the Ford faithful will stay...and cross-shoppers who are hp junkies will pick Ford. I don't think Ford was going after the ZR1, I think they were just trying to make the most powerful engine period.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

With a comparable R at $68,500 to the ZL1 1LE at $71,295.........HOW can Ford introduce a GT500 that turns as well as the ZL1, has more HP than the Hellcat, and is priced competitively?

Originally Posted by ST1LE

My question is how can you offer a GT500 that performs better than a GT350R for less money?

Well part of the expense in the R is the CF wheels. Those alone were like $15K or something ridiculous. And the engine was a shitload of money too. More than the previous GT500. So if they ditch that nonsense then that drops a significant amount of money from the price of the car. But then they'll have to make up for the loss of the CF wheels (which helped the GT350R perform) by adding better suspension components. And they can redirect some of that money into putting standard options back into the Shelby. And then put together a forced induction standard crank engine which should come in costing less than the GT350 engine. Maybe they'll even be able to give it DFI. So you'd be looking at a new Shelby that handles as good or better than the 350R, about the same power as the ZL1, and with some features all for about the same price as the GT350R. I don't think they'll try to go after Hellcat numbers. Maybe somewhere between the HC and ZL1. If they offer more hp than the ZL1 then they can shave even more money by giving it less features than the ZL1. Do I think they'll actually do all this? Nope. But if they do then I would consider getting one.

But see Ford seems to always put less into the Mustang but give it more power...or they offer more options for less money. That has been their thing for a long time. With the S550 they did neither. The S550 GT was cheaper, had less options, and did not keep up in performance whereas from 11-14 it was faster and in the late 90s to early 2000s you could get one fully loaded cheaper than a base Z28. The GT350 (R and non-R) were more expensive, offered less features, and underperformed. You can't miss all three of those. The GT500 will have to either outperform something, come in significantly cheaper, or have more options. I doubt the options and price so they'll have to knock it out the park with performance.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

My question is how can you offer a GT500 that performs better than a GT350R for less money?

BlaqWhole pretty much hit the nail on the head

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Well part of the expense in the R is the CF wheels. Those alone were like $15K or something ridiculous. And the engine was a shitload of money too. More than the previous GT500. So if they ditch that nonsense then that drops a significant amount of money from the price of the car. But then they'll have to make up for the loss of the CF wheels (which helped the GT350R perform) by adding better suspension components. And they can redirect some of that money into putting standard options back into the Shelby. And then put together a forced induction standard crank engine which should come in costing less than the GT350 engine. Maybe they'll even be able to give it DFI. So you'd be looking at a new Shelby that handles as good or better than the 350R, about the same power as the ZL1, and with some features all for about the same price as the GT350R. I don't think they'll try to go after Hellcat numbers. Maybe somewhere between the HC and ZL1. If they offer more hp than the ZL1 then they can shave even more money by giving it less features than the ZL1. Do I think they'll actually do all this? Nope. But if they do then I would consider getting one.

While offering them at the same time might be a tough sell if 18 is last year for 350, then 19 for 500 I think its doable.

Start with the 350R, minus CF wheels and Voodoo which make up the majority of that cars cost. I would have to assume that a boosted engine will cost less than the voodoo. Also with extra power, probably wouldn't need the benefit of the CF wheels. Even if you went at Base 350 wich is a 57K car, Ford should be able to offer a boosted Mustang for mid 60s.

GM was able to offer the 5th Gen ZL1 and Z/28 at the same time with the ZL1 holding performance advantages in certain areas for less.

I know this argument will get tossed out, but GM now offers a SS 1LE that can perform at 5th Gen Z/28 levels for about 30K less just a year later after the Z was done.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Or they had to completely dominate the field to justify the GT500. The ZL1 showed up with 30 more hp than the GT500 at that time (2012). Plus it had way more creature comforts, IRS, MRC, and was on the 5th Gen body style which at the time was the hottest thing. So to make the GT500 more appealing than the more powerful ZL1 with more features they had to shoot for the stars. And they did. If the GT500 had stayed at 550 or even had just a slight jump to match the ZL1's output at the time it wouldn't have gone well. So offer the most powerful engine (at that time) and the Ford faithful will stay...and cross-shoppers who are hp junkies will pick Ford. I don't think Ford was going after the ZR1, I think they were just trying to make the most powerful engine period.

They could have just stayed at 600hp and locked that up (against the ZL1). Either they thought the Camaro would get the LS9 or they were out to rain on the ZR1's parade. You don't shoot for almost 100hp over your target competitor in that kind of timeframe.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by shaffe

BlaqWhole pretty much hit the nail on the head



While offering them at the same time might be a tough sell if 18 is last year for 350, then 19 for 500 I think its doable.

Start with the 350R, minus CF wheels and Voodoo which make up the majority of that cars cost. I would have to assume that a boosted engine will cost less than the voodoo. Also with extra power, probably wouldn't need the benefit of the CF wheels. Even if you went at Base 350 wich is a 57K car, Ford should be able to offer a boosted Mustang for mid 60s.

GM was able to offer the 5th Gen ZL1 and Z/28 at the same time with the ZL1 holding performance advantages in certain areas for less.

I know this argument will get tossed out, but GM now offers a SS 1LE that can perform at 5th Gen Z/28 levels for about 30K less just a year later after the Z was done.

The problem with that is to meet the target power range (700+), the engine will undoubtedly be beefed up internally. Not b/c the current Coyote can't handle the power but because of OEM reliability targets. While there may still be some cost savings vs the Voodoo, it would not be a huge deficit because this engine will still be a single use model.

Weight is the other big factor. The '18s had added even more weight and now you are talking about adding FI (which will be worse with a TT setup if true), removing CFs wheels, adding more suspension strength, but still keeping the level of features as the ZL1. That makes for a car that is guaranteed to weight more than a ZL1 currently.

So what you are actually getting is borderline a Hellcat. And we all know just adding power does not make up for weight/suspension/chassis on a track as the Hellcat clearly shows. The new GT500 would need a drastic reduction in weight to add upgrades to beat a ZL1 around the track. And the problem with that is the S550 chassis. It would be much easier to do it if they were doing a chassis change, and that could keep the price low. But as it is, it is asking for way to much to get all the performance and comfort features and keep the price at/under a ZL1 at this point.

Ford is undoubtedly going to have to pick and choose their fights until next gen. My guess is they take the middle road. Offer a GT500 that can beat a Hellcat straight line, but handle as good as the GT350R at a price that splits the two.

As for your last statement, well you know the answer....change of chassis with huge weight savings.

[shaffe]

All valid points SuperSound, I just still see Ford being able to offer a ZL1 competitor in similar price range. Will it be a few thousnad higher maybe but I don't expect it to come in at the 70+ range.

Ford knows its market, If they came in with something way over priced to its direct competitors without soundly trashing them in performance it would be a huge fail. Which is why I think they will find a way to offer it at a similar price range

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by shaffe

All valid points SuperSound, I just still see Ford being able to offer a ZL1 competitor in similar price range. Will it be a few thousnad higher maybe but I don't expect it to come in at the 70+ range

I think we will get a better idea when we see the H2H and other reviews of how the '18 PP1 and PP2 do. If they have significantly improved in handling, a blown Coyote with similar improvements might just do it.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Cool story.


Yup and now they've taken it even one step further with the 750 hp 2019 ZR1. I think it's actually up to 755. And that just means that the next Gen ZL1 will be even meaner than this one is. Chevy is really killing it.

Cool response.


The next gens should be nothing short of phenomenal. Honestly I'm wondering which car in this segment will dive first into a performance based hybrid system. Seeing the 918 and P1's use if such systems is most likely a glimps into the future of all performance minded cars.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I think we will get a better idea when we see the H2H and other reviews of how the '18 PP1 and PP2 do. If they have significantly improved in handling, a blown Coyote with similar improvements might just do it.

Yep. I think where Ford is really making strides, is it seems they have learned the value of really good tires lol.

[ST1LE]

It just seems to me, releasing a car that is all around better than the GT350R one year after production for the same price or less doesn't seem like something they can just do. I am not saying they cannot manage it, I am saying it would be a nightmare for GT350R owners to see a GT500 blow their doors off at the strip and the track for the same coin in the same Gen with more options to boot. I would not be shocked if the GT500 is more targeting the straight line performance. I think Ford calls the GT350R a win in regards to its track performance for this Gen. For a few years it was the fastest around a track. They dont have anything that competes at all at the strip, seems like a heavily optioned out boulevard bruiser in the low 4K pound realm with over 700 HP is what we will see from Ford. Something that can hold its own at the track, but by no means its bread and butter.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

But there was a time just a couple years ago you wouldn't find a Camaro with the same rated HP/TQ as the similar engine Corvette. So times have changed some. Who knows what the future holds for both.

That’s because GM started having their engines SAE rated.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Well you have to remember that GM (and other vehicle manufacturers) have costs and regulations to be mindful of. The little 1.7 liter blower does a magnificent job. These cars are making about 550 to the wheels thru the A10 and more thru the M6. And they are in the 11s and run with stock Hellcats. Plus the boost is instantaneous. And it gets pretty good MPGs for what it is. Why would GM need to spend more money and increase the cost of the car to put a bigger blower on it when this blower does everything they wanted it to do and more? And despite the blower, what other car in the same price range can even keep up with it? Besides most of us are happy with it's performance as it is. The few people who are willing to void their warranty with tunes and pulleys are not enough to justify the extra costs.

And those other manufacturers have no problems putting bespoke engines in cars that cost the same as the Camaro does. It’s the difference between “build what you want” and “here’s what you get”. Sure, team Camaro does insane things with what they are given, but just imagine what they could do if they had the respect to get what they need. Just because Corvette wasn’t happy with the 7.0 LTx doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have worked for a Z/28 but we don’t get that chance because Corvette dictates the engines. The other companies make that happen. Why can’t GM?

Originally Posted by WhyUMad1LE

You could look at it from another perspective in which the Camaro wouldn't have engines as good as LT1 and LT4 if it weren't for shared powertrain costs with the Corvette. I think they did a good job combining the best platform and the best engines within the GM lineup.

Mustang has no problem getting the engines it needs. Same for the Challenger. It seems they get more room to try things without having a halo car. Corvette seems to think anything but the base is a 6.2 with a blower. It’s fine and works but it would be nice to see some imagination.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Mustang has no problem getting the engines it needs. Same for the Challenger. It seems they get more room to try things without having a halo car. Corvette seems to think anything but the base is a 6.2 with a blower. It’s fine and works but it would be nice to see some imagination.

I agree! What they do works, but to be honest, it is getting a little boring and extremely predictable.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

That’s because GM started having their engines SAE rated.

LS3s were both SAE rated. Camaro's was 4hp lower (without NPP). Even the Chevy SS' engine had a reduced rating compared to both. It's obvious they were doing some "protecting" of the Vette. It wasn't till the Z/28 came out that a Camaro and Corvette with the same engine had the same power rating, SAE or not.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

It just seems to me, releasing a car that is all around better than the GT350R one year after production for the same price or less doesn't seem like something they can just do. I am not saying they cannot manage it, I am saying it would be a nightmare for GT350R owners to see a GT500 blow their doors off at the strip and the track for the same coin in the same Gen with more options to boot. I would not be shocked if the GT500 is more targeting the straight line performance. I think Ford calls the GT350R a win in regards to its track performance for this Gen. For a few years it was the fastest around a track. They dont have anything that competes at all at the strip, seems like a heavily optioned out boulevard bruiser in the low 4K pound realm with over 700 HP is what we will see from Ford. Something that can hold its own at the track, but by no means its bread and butter.

There is zero chance of anyone getting a GT500 at a price anywhere close to a ZL1. For it to be competitive in a straight line it needs over 700 horsepower. I don't think they could make it competitive on a track with the ZL1 1LE for less than 100,000. They ought to wait and launch it in 2021 as an S650. Call whatever this new model is a Mach 1.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

LS3s were both SAE rated. Camaro's was 4hp lower (without NPP). Even the Chevy SS' engine had a reduced rating compared to both. It's obvious they were doing some "protecting" of the Vette. It wasn't till the Z/28 came out that a Camaro and Corvette with the same engine had the same power rating, SAE or not.

The Camaro made up those few hp because they changed from the cast iron exhaust manifolds to the tubular tri y headers.

Even then, we’re a long way off from Camaro getting engines that aren’t designed for the Corvette and go in the Corvette first.