[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro is clearly held back by the Vette. Sure, the base engines are generally more than good enough but the performance versions lack the autonomy needed for the Camaro's competition.

Ah, ok. I personally don't think it is held back by the Vette. I think it is as awesome as it is because of the Vette and because we get stuff from the Vette.

[BlaqWhole]

I find it funny that the Mustang is supposed to be a performance oriented car, yet sales are the only argument the Mustang fanboys have to defend how pathetic it is

They have made the slowest cars in the past 3 model years, they don't have one car in the 11s bone stock in the past 3 model years, their halo car is a fire hazard...ok so I can see why they have to brag about sales, that's all they have.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ah, ok. I personally don't think it is held back by the Vette. I think it is as awesome as it is because of the Vette and because we get stuff from the Vette.

plus the stuff Camaro gets from Cadillac

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ah, ok. I personally don't think it is held back by the Vette. I think it is as awesome as it is because of the Vette and because we get stuff from the Vette.

So you don't think the ZL1 could have been any better, if it wasn't stuck with the tiny 1.7 liter blower from the Z06? Or that manual Camaros are stuck with AFM lifters, when they don't get AFM?

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So you don't think the ZL1 could have been any better, if it wasn't stuck with the tiny 1.7 liter blower from the Z06? Or that manual Camaros are stuck with AFM lifters, when they don't get AFM?

But there was a time just a couple years ago you wouldn't find a Camaro with the same rated HP/TQ as the similar engine Corvette. So times have changed some. Who knows what the future holds for both.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So you don't think the ZL1 could have been any better, if it wasn't stuck with the tiny 1.7 liter blower from the Z06? Or that manual Camaros are stuck with AFM lifters, when they don't get AFM?

Well you have to remember that GM (and other vehicle manufacturers) have costs and regulations to be mindful of. The little 1.7 liter blower does a magnificent job. These cars are making about 550 to the wheels thru the A10 and more thru the M6. And they are in the 11s and run with stock Hellcats. Plus the boost is instantaneous. And it gets pretty good MPGs for what it is. Why would GM need to spend more money and increase the cost of the car to put a bigger blower on it when this blower does everything they wanted it to do and more? And despite the blower, what other car in the same price range can even keep up with it? Besides most of us are happy with it's performance as it is. The few people who are willing to void their warranty with tunes and pulleys are not enough to justify the extra costs.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

But there was a time just a couple years ago you wouldn't find a Camaro with the same rated HP/TQ as the similar engine Corvette. So times have changed some. Who knows what the future holds for both.

True indeed!

[Speedofsound]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I find it funny that the Mustang is supposed to be a performance oriented car, yet sales are the only argument the Mustang fanboys have to defend how pathetic it is

They have made the slowest cars in the past 3 model years, they don't have one car in the 11s bone stock in the past 3 model years, their halo car is a fire hazard...ok so I can see why they have to brag about sales, that's all they have.

That's like you saying your bud is not very good looking but lays a different chick every couple days. You claim you don't understand how the bum gets it done.....well bud, something is being done right but going right over your head. Chevy doesn't care what I think as an individual, and guess what, Ford can care less what you think. It's a business, and business is doing well.

[Jastone]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

That's like you saying your bud is not very good looking but lays a different chick every couple days. You claim you don't understand how the bum gets it done.....well bud, something is being done right but going right over your head. Chevy doesn't care what I think as an individual, and guess what, Ford can care less what you think. It's a business, and business is doing well.

Then I guess by this logic, the Camry must be a better performance car than the Mustang. I mean, it kills in sales numbers, and who cares about the performance as long as it sales!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

That's like you saying your bud is not very good looking but lays a different chick every couple days. You claim you don't understand how the bum gets it done.....well bud, something is being done right but going right over your head. Chevy doesn't care what I think as an individual, and guess what, Ford can care less what you think. It's a business, and business is doing well.

Where exactly did I say I don't understand? I'm saying I find it funny that your only argument is that it sells well. And the Camaro has outsold it a few times as well as the Challenger outselling both of them. I mean, ok your piss poor GT sold well, haha! Good for you. I'll think about that while I'm running circles around you.

Originally Posted by Jastone

Then I guess by this logic, the Camry must be a better performance car than the Mustang. I mean, it kills in sales numbers, and who cares about the performance as long as it sales!

Well there were Honda Accords that were faster than some of the GTs back in the New Edge body style...and they sell good...so I guess it wouldn't be too far off to say the Accord was a better performance car than the Mustang GT back in the 2000s, lol!!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

That's like you saying your bud is not very good looking but lays a different chick every couple days. You claim you don't understand how the bum gets it done.....well bud, something is being done right but going right over your head. Chevy doesn't care what I think as an individual, and guess what, Ford can care less what you think. It's a business, and business is doing well.

LOL, rating a performance car solely by how it sells is like a butt ugly chick winning a beauty pageant because she's the smartest! So maybe next time I go to buy a performance car the first thing I'll look up is it's sales numbers. Maybe that's how you ended up in a Mustang

[crysalis_01]

Or maybe he ended up in a Mustang because that's what he wanted. It presented itself in a manner that he as a buyer, spending his own hard earned, appreciated. Is it your cup of tea? No. And rightfully so, you look for a certain set of criteria to be met for your purchase. Pehaps, and this may seem odd, he has a different set of criteria that must be met for him to purchase. Can some of those criteria be the same? Sure. Can some of them be vastly diffetent? Indeed.

What I wonder about from time to time is how we as enthusiasts can forget that just because we like a thing, doesn't mean everyone will. Some buy a car like these to fulfill a need to be seen as "the best" or "the fastest" because that's what makes them happy. To know that even though you may never throttle-in "in anger" but choose to compare magazine specs. Or if you're an avid amateur racer that hits the strip and course every chance you get. Or if you simply appreciate the presence of the car. Or love the act of modding one, performance mined and aesthetic minded, to make it your own. It's all about what makes you happy.

These aren't boring appliences to get us from point A to point B. These are places to enjoy the journey in between in. In that moment of happiness, is doesn't matter who has the quickest car, the best handling car, or the best selling car... it's whatever car you're in, allowing you to enjoy your drive and not just be a bystander/passenger waiting for the end of the line.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Or maybe he ended up in a Mustang because that's what he wanted. It presented itself in a manner that he as a buyer, spending his own hard earned, appreciated. Is it your cup of tea? No. And rightfully so, you look for a certain set of criteria to be met for your purchase. Pehaps, and this may seem odd, he has a different set of criteria that must be met for him to purchase. Can some of those criteria be the same? Sure. Can some of them be vastly diffetent? Indeed.

What I wonder about from time to time is how we as enthusiasts can forget that just because we like a thing, doesn't mean everyone will. Some buy a car like these to fulfill a need to be seen as "the best" or "the fastest" because that's what makes them happy. To know that even though you may never throttle-in "in anger" but choose to compare magazine specs. Or if you're an avid amateur racer that hits the strip and course every chance you get. Or if you simply appreciate the presence of the car. Or love the act of modding one, performance mined and aesthetic minded, to make it your own. It's all about what makes you happy.

These aren't boring appliences to get us from point A to point B. These are places to enjoy the journey in between in. In that moment of happiness, is doesn't matter who has the quickest car, the best handling car, or the best selling car... it's whatever car you're in, allowing you to enjoy your drive and not just be a bystander/passenger waiting for the end of the line.

So what argument will they use next? Better gas mileage? Color options? The steering wheel? LOL!! Maybe the windshield wipers? "Hey, my Mustang might be slower but we have a better blind spot indication system" Ok, enjoy that!

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So what argument will they use next? Better gas mileage? Color options? The steering wheel? LOL!! Maybe the windshield wipers? "Hey, my Mustang might be slower but we have a better blind spot indication system" Ok, enjoy that!

Or maybe there doesn't have to be an argument at all. Maybe we, as enthusiasts, can see that not only do we enjoy the vehicles we've chosen to purchase, mod, race, show, cruise, etc. but that those who have chosen the "cometition" also enjoy their choices for their own reasons. There doesnt have to be conflict, discussion? yes, but not with agression, its not necessary.

We can speak to one another about why we love the machines we pilot. Why we chose what we chose and how it fits us betger than the alternatives, all the while recognizing that just because we've made a certain choice, it doesn't invalidate the choices of others.

The divisiveness of this arena is up there with sports teams. I understand that. But that doesn't mean that everything had to devolve to belittling, trolling, and arguments. Noting the bad points of one vs the others doesn't mean you can dismiss the good points of one vs the others.

[WhyUMad1LE]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So you don't think the ZL1 could have been any better, if it wasn't stuck with the tiny 1.7 liter blower from the Z06? Or that manual Camaros are stuck with AFM lifters, when they don't get AFM?

You could look at it from another perspective in which the Camaro wouldn't have engines as good as LT1 and LT4 if it weren't for shared powertrain costs with the Corvette. I think they did a good job combining the best platform and the best engines within the GM lineup.