[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

See that is the difference between me and you. I can easily admit if Ford makes a better car. You and your ilk sit here trying to disagree with everyone. I have many times said that the 11-14 GTs were faster which is true. You refuse to admit that the Shelby was outclassed this time around when it is obvious.

Here's the thing, if the GT500 comes out and beats the ZL1, then fine. I for one am a fan of the GT500. Most of us here have respect for the GT500. It certainly is a worthy opponent and is a beast no matter how you slice it. But the thing is that unless the GT500 completely destroys it, offers similar options, and does it at a much lower price with no markups, then a loss won't take anything away from the ZL1. It'll still be an awesome car that loss to another awesome car. And at worst they'll still be on the same level. It'll no doubt be a driver's race. Shit I'll take a loss to a GT500. That's like losing to a Hellcat or Demon in a quarter mile. Nothing to be ashamed of. And that is the problem with the 15-17 GT which you just refuse to understand. The GT offered much less, the price was not much lower, and yet the SS destroyed the GT in every category

the difference between you and me is you have poor reading retention and use straw man arguments when you have nothing else to support your opinion. I already stated that the 6G was the better car than the 15-17 GT and that if I were in the market for a muscle car that I would have bought the SS over the GT.

you want to beat your chest about the ZL1 beating the GT350 in a 1/4 mile or road course knock yourself out, but you know that the 350 was never intended to be the counterpart to the ZL1. Ford has a model for that..the same one they brought out after the ZL1 last generation.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

But you said I don't own a mustang...now you say I do...I'm confused now.

You sure are.

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

It's not all about performance, something's appeal to people more.

Thats a loser's argument.

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

Agreed. But some people love things to a money issue, that you're somehow less of a person than they are. Pathetic.

Why are you worried about what other people care about? Sounds like you have an insecurity issue. Maybe you should worry about yourself.

Originally Posted by newmoon

The issue is most that have reviewed the R and ZL1 do not consider the Camaro special, yes it has the better track numbers but there is nothing unique about the car, nothing to set you apart from the crowd when compared to an R. There is no WOW factor. Each review says the same thing the R is much more enjoyable to drive. Its a fun car.

The pricing of these vehicle backs this up, why are people so eager to pay $10,000 - $30,000 more than MSRP for the R, than for the faster ZL1, why are ZL1 being offered with discounts, yet Rs demand well above MSRP.

You can argue the track numbers all day long and the ZL1 is the clear winner but the bottom line is the general opinion is that the R is the much more desirable car presently and I am sure in the future.

Tell you what, go get a Shelby...when you do we'll park our cars next to each other and see which one draws more attention. Then we'll go to a car meet or the track and see which one strikes up more conversation. My ZL1 got more looks and drew a crowd each time I been to the track while the Shelbys all sat over in a corner. Not one person approached any of them. I found that funny.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

The pricing of these vehicle backs this up, why are people so eager to pay $10,000 - $30,000 more than MSRP for the R, than for the faster ZL1, why are ZL1 being offered with discounts, yet Rs demand well above MSRP.

People paid those markups because they thought it would be an investment or that they would somehow come out ahead. They were banking on the Shelby doing what the Ford GT in the 2000s did. Nobody goes out and pays that kind of a markup on a car unless they're trying to turn a profit. And it didn't work out because they all lost that money.

Originally Posted by newmoon

You can argue the track numbers all day long and the ZL1 is the clear winner.

How much did it hurt for you to admit that? It only took all this time for one of you to admit the obvious.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

There really is no arguing this, its a fact. The GT350 R or non-R are the most desirable cars in this segment. With how much the prices have come down on used GT350's, it is even more desirable now. This continues even with the problems that don't seem to be getting addressed with the car. They are numerous too, every 3rd thread on M6G is a new issue that some poor customer is dealing with. The newest being the clutch cant last passed 25K miles +/-. How many of these cars has Ford had to pony up and buy back? Does that count as a sale? HAHAHAHA

I gotta say, since the fire recall, the CAL against Ford, and the release of the 18 GT, along with the competition offering more than the Shelby does, I think the desirability of the Shelby has gone down considerably. In fact I've been noticing a sentiment of people saying to stay away from that car. This whole "special" car thing was nothing to begin with. It was an argument that only developed after the Shelby took a loss. Before that it was all about how awesome it performed. When it lost to the ZL1 and struggled against the SS 1LE it became all about how "special" the car is. There is nothing special about it nor has there ever been.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

the difference between you and me is you have poor reading retention and use straw man arguments when you have nothing else to support your opinion. I already stated that the 6G was the better car than the 15-17 GT and that if I were in the market for a muscle car that I would have bought the SS over the GT.

you want to beat your chest about the ZL1 beating the GT350 in a 1/4 mile or road course knock yourself out, but you know that the 350 was never intended to be the counterpart to the ZL1. Ford has a model for that..the same one they brought out after the ZL1 last generation.

Sure bro, sure. Keep telling yourself that fella. When is the GT500 coming out BTW? IF it does show up for the S550 (doubtful) and IF it outperforms the ZL1 (doubtful) and IF it comes in at a comparable price (doubtful) and IF it can be had without markups (doubtful) and IF it offers enough options to compare to the Hellcats and the ZL1 (doubtful)...IF it can do all of that then I'll probably get one. But that is a lot of ifs.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Jastone

Sure, I concede that fact. By and large, the general public like Mustangs. So, your point is? It’s not about performance solely, clearly, or the Mustang wouldn’t sell as well as it does. You then can concede that fact, correct?

And, if it isn’t about performance solely, why are you in a thread about performance defending Mustang? Head over to general discussion and talk about how ergonomic the cabin is, or how much you LOVE dash layout or etc. because stepping into a performance discussion about the Camaro vs Mustang isn’t the place to say how much you like the visibility of the Mustang.

People here care “MOSTLY” about ###’s. Cost vs performance. You’re not going to get sympathetic ears to listen to you talk about sales when the car has been outperformed for years.

Exactly. They should be in a thread about the sales of the car, lol!! These guys have spent all of their time on the performance related threads arguing that it isn't about the performance. And yet they're the same ones talking about the performance of the 18 and how it did this or that in the quarter mile. So I guess if the 18 is faster then the SS then it'll be all about the performance.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sure bro, sure. Keep telling yourself that fella. When is the GT500 coming out BTW? IF it does show up for the S550 (doubtful) and IF it outperforms the ZL1 (doubtful) and IF it comes in at a comparable price (doubtful) and IF it can be had without markups (doubtful) and IF it offers enough options to compare to the Hellcats and the ZL1 (doubtful)...IF it can do all of that then I'll probably get one. But that is a lot of ifs.

Granted the GT500 is still a unkown to this point. I don't understand why you are so sure Ford if they do build one, can't build one that is in the same ball park price wise as the ZL1. They know what the competition has out there, and if they bring something out thats out of the price range I think they know that would be a total failure unless it performs well above what the competition does.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Granted the GT500 is still a unkown to this point. I don't understand why you are so sure Ford if they do build one, can't build one that is in the same ball park price wise as the ZL1. They know what the competition has out there, and if they bring something out thats out of the price range I think they know that would be a total failure unless it performs well above what the competition does.

Because if they could, it would already be out. Problem is, they are in a tricky situation. The last generation, the GT500 came out right on the heels of the 5th Gen ZL1, and with significantly more HP. A clear attempt to cast a shadow on Chevy's new (at the time) ZL1. But that was an easy thing to do. Why? Well, everybody knew the approx. HP of the impending ZL1 because Camaro always gets a motor from the 'vette. So, Ford has a major advantage in knowing what powerplant is going in the next model for their competitor. They then stacked the deck with a bigger blower and more HP. Nice move!

But this time around, there is a big problem - the Hellcat/Demon. Ford probably figured that the new ZL1 would have about 650HP by using the LT4 from the Z06 'vette. So, they figured if they just put out a bit more HP than the Hellcat's 707, they could market their car again, as the highest HP car in the segment, again casting a big shadow on the Camaro. But, then came the Demon. If they wanted to have the HP crown, they would have to get deep into the 800 HP range. If they want to go with a Hellcat beating HP number but not Demon beating number, it better be more nimble than the ZL1, which ain't going to happen on the current platform. Ford is stuck between a rock and a hard place (or a ZL1 and a Demon, if you will).

So, I think the GT500 was delayed to find a way to get more HP than the Demon and still meet the regulations. I believe they will do it, but it takes time. I am hoping for a twin turbo GT500. It would set them apart from the rest, and it can be marketed as an addition to the EcoBoost line. I was originally hoping they would TT the Voodoo, but that engine has too many issues for my taste. Hope they TT the Coyote, and dress it up nice, for not an outrageous amount.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

It is a more rare car. Not highly available like the ZL1 or Hellcat. Also on these H2H shows they only consider MSRP. I can guarantee that if you added the 30k ADM Motor Trend would find a car in that price range they like a whole lot better.

Correct. The GT350R is deliberately rare. Dealer mark ups disappear once demand is met and Ford keeps these cars unattainable whereas a ZL1 is abundant. I never understood why Mustang fans consider that a good thing

GT350R Production
2015 – 37
2016 - 526

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Because if they could, it would already be out. Problem is, they are in a tricky situation. The last generation, the GT500 came out right on the heels of the 5th Gen ZL1, and with significantly more HP. A clear attempt to cast a shadow on Chevy's new (at the time) ZL1. But that was an easy thing to do. Why? Well, everybody knew the approx. HP of the impending ZL1 because Camaro always gets a motor from the 'vette. So, Ford has a major advantage in knowing what powerplant is going in the next model for their competitor. They then stacked the deck with a bigger blower and more HP. Nice move!

There's a problem with that line of thought, the LSA which was used in ZL1 was first used in the '09 CTS-V with only 556hp. The LS9 which was used in the C6 ZR1 came out at the same time had 638hp and was never used in the Camaro. The LSA was never used in a Vette. So either Ford set the wrong engine target (LS9 instead of LSA) or they weren't after the ZL1 anyway and were out to one up the LS9 in the ZR1.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Correct. The GT350R is deliberately rare. Dealer mark ups disappear once demand is met and Ford keeps these cars unattainable whereas a ZL1 is abundant. I never understood why Mustang fans consider that a good thing

GT350R Production
2015 – 37
2016 - 526

Wasn't 2015 Z/28 production similar numbers to 16 350R? and in 16 they produced to many?

And isn't the ZL1 1LE limited to like 750 per year (thought I read that somewhere so not 100% sure)

I agree that for the GT500 or whatever if its coming, then Ford needs to build it just like the ZL1. just top trim of the vehicle. and IMO DROP THE SHELBY name. I think that is part of what tacks on the ADM

[ST1LE]

With a comparable R at $68,500 to the ZL1 1LE at $71,295.........HOW can Ford introduce a GT500 that turns as well as the ZL1, has more HP than the Hellcat, and is priced competitively?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

With a comparable R at $68,500 to the ZL1 1LE at $71,295.........HOW can Ford introduce a GT500 that turns as well as the ZL1, has more HP than the Hellcat, and is priced competitively?

They undercut the Z/28 by 12K, and even offered it with creature comforts for 7k less. Despite what anyone says, I think its pretty clear the sole purpose of the 350R was to take on the Z/28 and prove ford could build an N/A focused track car too. Basically a d*** measuring contest between the two lol.

I think for a ZL1 fighter they can introduce something at a similar price point as the ZL1.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

They undercut the Z/28 by 12K, and even offered it with creature comforts for 7k less. Despite what anyone says, I think its pretty clear the sole purpose of the 350R was to take on the Z/28 and prove ford could build an N/A focused track car too. Basically a d*** measuring contest between the two lol.

I think for a ZL1 fighter they can introduce something at a similar price point as the ZL1.

My question is how can you offer a GT500 that performs better than a GT350R for less money?

[RagingHawk]

I don't see how you can justify a GT350 if it is true that the GT PP performs like the M4/3 now, suspension wise. If the suspension is still behind then I can see value in GT350 at reasonable price. If GT PP caught up, then those inflated prices are not worth it. The GT350 has a purpose(track performance) and is a unique car and I wouldn't mind shopping for that. Back to the PP, there has been no track testing from any magazines yet, or performance testing besides 1/4 mile. So we don't know what improved. If it's well behind the Camaro standard SS still, I don't see how anyone who's looking for budget performance and fun would choose that car over the Camaro.