[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Or maybe there doesn't have to be an argument at all. Maybe we, as enthusiasts, can see that not only do we enjoy the vehicles we've chosen to purchase, mod, race, show, cruise, etc. but that those who have chosen the "cometition" also enjoy their choices for their own reasons. There doesnt have to be conflict, discussion? yes, but not with agression, its not necessary.

We can speak to one another about why we love the machines we pilot. Why we chose what we chose and how it fits us betger than the alternatives, all the while recognizing that just because we've made a certain choice, it doesn't invalidate the choices of others.

The divisiveness of this arena is up there with sports teams. I understand that. But that doesn't mean that everything had to devolve to belittling, trolling, and arguments. Noting the bad points of one vs the others doesn't mean you can dismiss the good points of one vs the others.

Cool story.

Originally Posted by WhyUMad1LE

You could look at it from another perspective in which the Camaro wouldn't have engines as good as LT1 and LT4 if it weren't for shared powertrain costs with the Corvette. I think they did a good job combining the best platform and the best engines within the GM lineup.

Yup and now they've taken it even one step further with the 750 hp 2019 ZR1. I think it's actually up to 755. And that just means that the next Gen ZL1 will be even meaner than this one is. Chevy is really killing it.

[Speedofsound]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

LOL, rating a performance car solely by how it sells is like a butt ugly chick winning a beauty pageant because she's the smartest! So maybe next time I go to buy a performance car the first thing I'll look up is it's sales numbers. Maybe that's how you ended up in a Mustang

But you said I don't own a mustang...now you say I do...I'm confused now.

[Speedofsound]

Originally Posted by Jastone

Then I guess by this logic, the Camry must be a better performance car than the Mustang. I mean, it kills in sales numbers, and who cares about the performance as long as it sales!

It's not all about performance, something's appeal to people more.

[Speedofsound]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Or maybe there doesn't have to be an argument at all. Maybe we, as enthusiasts, can see that not only do we enjoy the vehicles we've chosen to purchase, mod, race, show, cruise, etc. but that those who have chosen the "cometition" also enjoy their choices for their own reasons. There doesnt have to be conflict, discussion? yes, but not with agression, its not necessary.

We can speak to one another about why we love the machines we pilot. Why we chose what we chose and how it fits us betger than the alternatives, all the while recognizing that just because we've made a certain choice, it doesn't invalidate the choices of others.

The divisiveness of this arena is up there with sports teams. I understand that. But that doesn't mean that everything had to devolve to belittling, trolling, and arguments. Noting the bad points of one vs the others doesn't mean you can dismiss the good points of one vs the others.

Agreed. But some people love things to a money issue, that you're somehow less of a person than they are. Pathetic.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

you'd think that If the ZL1 was such a better car in every way than the GT350 , the magazines reviewers that everyone seems to put so much stock in would stop picking the 350 as the car they'd rather drive.

be interesting if Ford gets around to dropping a GT500 that outperforms the ZL1. What will be the talk around here if both the Supercharged Camaro and the n/a version get outperformed by a lowly S550?

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The issue is most that have reviewed the R and ZL1 do not consider the Camaro special, yes it has the better track numbers but there is nothing unique about the car, nothing to set you apart from the crowd when compared to an R. There is no WOW factor. Each review says the same thing the R is much more enjoyable to drive. Its a fun car.

The pricing of these vehicle backs this up, why are people so eager to pay $10,000 - $30,000 more than MSRP for the R, than for the faster ZL1, why are ZL1 being offered with discounts, yet Rs demand well above MSRP.

You can argue the track numbers all day long and the ZL1 is the clear winner but the bottom line is the general opinion is that the R is the much more desirable car presently and I am sure in the future.

[ModernCamaroZ28Fan]

You also know MotorTrend was being nice to poor ford because the Mustang beat the Z28 while throwing in the Al-mighty GT350, they call it. Then, the Camaro ZL1 and SS 1LE Spanks The GT350R. It's the same thing in the 2012 review with the ZL1 and The GT(Insert 3 digit numbers).

MT: "Oh, The ZL1 wasn't given a far shot because It has 80 horsepower less and I like it better because I can..."

In 2017, MT: "Oh, The GT350R wasn't given a fair shot against the ZL1 because it has 20% more horsepower on a supercharged plateform and it sounds racey."

You can't take Head 2 Head seriously all the time.

[ModernCamaroZ28Fan]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The issue is most that have reviewed the R and ZL1 do not consider the Camaro special, yes it has the better track numbers but there is nothing unique about the car, nothing to set you apart from the crowd when compared to an R. There is no WOW factor. Each review says the same thing the R is much more enjoyable to drive. Its a fun car.

The pricing of these vehicle backs this up, why are people so eager to pay $10,000 - $30,000 more than MSRP for the R, than for the faster ZL1, why are ZL1 being offered with discounts, yet Rs demand well above MSRP.

You can argue the track numbers all day long and the ZL1 is the clear winner but the bottom line is the general opinion is that the R is the much more desirable car presently and I am sure in the future.

Then, they can really get a run for their money and get a ZL1 1LE.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Ford also needs to stop building cars that dealers are willing to charge and idiots are willing to pay ADM's/AMV's on. The more these are paid, the more dealers will continue to tack them on.

One of the main reasons I think they need to drop the "Shelby" name. I don't remember crazy mark ups on the terminator Cobra's. I remember a buddy of mine actually getting a pretty good deal on his when he bought it new in 04. They also IMO need to stop saying they are only going to produce X amount. Just freaking build them like the Chevy does the ZL1, its just the top trim of the car.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Cool story.



Yup and now they've taken it even one step further with the 750 hp 2019 ZR1. I think it's actually up to 755. And that just means that the next Gen ZL1 will be even meaner than this one is. Chevy is really killing it.

The Corvette is a great place to grab parts and tech from. Idon't think the Camaro will get the LT5 though, (if it does though mother of god would that car be insane) I think the LT5 might be a vette exclusive like the LS9 was.

Originally Posted by ModernCamaroZ28Fan

You can't take Head 2 Head seriously all the time.

Which is why I said earlier in the thread, there needs to be some subjectivity in those reviews. If it was jsut about the numbers, then there is no point in the reviews

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The issue is most that have reviewed the R and ZL1 do not consider the Camaro special, yes it has the better track numbers but there is nothing unique about the car, nothing to set you apart from the crowd when compared to an R. There is no WOW factor. Each review says the same thing the R is much more enjoyable to drive. Its a fun car.

The pricing of these vehicle backs this up, why are people so eager to pay $10,000 - $30,000 more than MSRP for the R, than for the faster ZL1, why are ZL1 being offered with discounts, yet Rs demand well above MSRP.

You can argue the track numbers all day long and the ZL1 is the clear winner but the bottom line is the general opinion is that the R is the much more desirable car presently and I am sure in the future.

It is a more rare car. Not highly available like the ZL1 or Hellcat. Also on these H2H shows they only consider MSRP. I can guarantee that if you added the 30k ADM Motor Trend would find a car in that price range they like a whole lot better.

[ModernCamaroZ28Fan]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Cool story.



Yup and now they've taken it even one step further with the 750 hp 2019 ZR1. I think it's actually up to 755. And that just means that the next Gen ZL1 will be even meaner than this one is. Chevy is really killing it.

The Next ZL1? *sigh*

I feel like that's so little horsepower for a 2023/2024 Camaro ZL1, they better do something right with that.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The issue is most that have reviewed the R and ZL1 do not consider the Camaro special, yes it has the better track numbers but there is nothing unique about the car, nothing to set you apart from the crowd when compared to an R. There is no WOW factor. Each review says the same thing the R is much more enjoyable to drive. Its a fun car.

The pricing of these vehicle backs this up, why are people so eager to pay $10,000 - $30,000 more than MSRP for the R, than for the faster ZL1, why are ZL1 being offered with discounts, yet Rs demand well above MSRP.

You can argue the track numbers all day long and the ZL1 is the clear winner but the bottom line is the general opinion is that the R is the much more desirable car presently and I am sure in the future.

There really is no arguing this, its a fact. The GT350 R or non-R are the most desirable cars in this segment. With how much the prices have come down on used GT350's, it is even more desirable now. This continues even with the problems that don't seem to be getting addressed with the car. They are numerous too, every 3rd thread on M6G is a new issue that some poor customer is dealing with. The newest being the clutch cant last passed 25K miles +/-. How many of these cars has Ford had to pony up and buy back? Does that count as a sale? HAHAHAHA

I digress........I guess the point is, it really is the "special" factor that people love. I myself would buy a used one if I had more confidence in its quality. It is an amazing engine, the only one I would sell my S65 for in fact.

Is the car the fastest at its price point? No, quite the opposite in fact when comparing the non-R GT350 to its faster and MUCH cheaper competition the 1LE. Is the car the most reliable, again, quite the opposite as pointed out above. The word "Liability" comes to mind in fact. BUT, in the face of all this, people are still lining up to buy them.

CLEARLY, performance is not all that matters and we can prove that in many ways. Even if the GT350 was the fastest car in the segment, its performance is not enough for me to overlook the inevitable failures. Performance is NOT everything!

[ModernCamaroZ28Fan]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The ignorance of your comment is that the person you're agreeing with called the ZL1 a "supercar"...and what exactly are you mocking me about? Oh right, that the Camaro "was made to compete against Ferraris and other SUPERCARS", lol!! In fact, most of your fellow Mustang nut-humpers are saying it's unfair to compare the ZL1 to the Shelby because the ZL1 is a supercar, lol!! Looks like all that competing with the best paid off for Chevy when the best that Ford has to offer is nothing in comparison. Chevy built a "supercar" that blows the Shelby away at everything including what the Shelby itself was built to do well.

Well, The First ZL1 was like the Top 10 Quickest Cars In The World in 1969. Only the Corvette, Cobra, And Very Little Other Cars Got Ahead Of The ZL1.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Which is why I said earlier in the thread, there needs to be some subjectivity in those reviews. If it was jsut about the numbers, then there is no point in the reviews

That is a very solid point. A review is not needed if all they are doing is ranking cars based on numbers. Reviews are also not the end all be all. Some people like to hang their hat on reviews for some sort of justification that they have the best car, and that's why they fight for them and complain about them.

It is just another tool to help you make your decision.

[Jastone]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

It's not all about performance, something's appeal to people more.

Sure, I concede that fact. By and large, the general public like Mustangs. So, your point is? It’s not about performance solely, clearly, or the Mustang wouldn’t sell as well as it does. You then can concede that fact, correct?

And, if it isn’t about performance solely, why are you in a thread about performance defending Mustang? Head over to general discussion and talk about how ergonomic the cabin is, or how much you LOVE dash layout or etc. because stepping into a performance discussion about the Camaro vs Mustang isn’t the place to say how much you like the visibility of the Mustang.

People here care “MOSTLY” about ###’s. Cost vs performance. You’re not going to get sympathetic ears to listen to you talk about sales when the car has been outperformed for years.