[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

I wasn't saying dr's and removing tq management. I'm saying the tq management lifted may be a better mod than dr's for the ZL1. As far as what the next hc or whatever fca makes we're talking about the here and now the rest is all speculation. I do believe RPM supposedly went 10.9? with some kind of tire a few months back not sure what they used though.

Could be. Someone needs to make a few passes on factory tires and swap to DRs same day same track and lets find out. Maybe we can talk 17CamaroZL1 in to it so I can be there to cheer him on, and help swap tires if needed

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

Not sure about the standard Hellcat, but I have seen where Dodge is claiming the wide body Hellcat will run that time. Not sure if that's a drag radial or just a wider street tire. My guess is it's a wider street tire on one of their specially prepped tracks.

I think I remember that, but the widebody tires are just wider I think. 315/35R20 maybe? Seems odd just a wider tire would help that much but that track prep expert may have a new compound cooked up. My buddy and i were having a good laugh about that tonight.

There are always secrets to these things

Oh I thought of something the other day. I have a spare Diablo Trinity you can borrow if we end up the track together to get some datalogs. Theyre always telling even factory. You dont have to do any voodoo....just plug in to obdii and select pids.

A few mods to either car and 9 second passes....unreal. Woulda never dreamed this 10 years ago.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

Could be. Someone needs to make a few passes on factory tires and swap to DRs same day same track and lets find out. Maybe we can talk 17CamaroZL1 in to it so I can be there to cheer him on, and help swap tires if needed



I think I remember that, but the widebody tires are just wider I think. 315/35R20 maybe? Seems odd just a wider tire would help that much but that track prep expert may have a new compound cooked up. My buddy and i were having a good laugh about that tonight.

There are always secrets to these things

Oh I thought of something the other day. I have a spare Diablo Trinity you can borrow if we end up the track together to get some datalogs. Theyre always telling even factory. You dont have to do any voodoo....just plug in to obdii and select pids.

I'm game if anyone has some wheels and tires that'll fit and does't mind loaning them out for a pass or two.

I like the idea of logging too. I'd love to see what my IATs are and whatever other pertinent info the diablo may tell us.

40 mm on each tire is quite a bit of extra rubber they can glue to the track. Lol!

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

A few mods to either car and 9 second passes....unreal. Woulda never dreamed this 10 years ago.

I know! It's crazy!

[HAMMERHEAD15]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

You can find that online for yourself plain and simple! Go do a little research before spouting off! FI cars are less affected by DA than NA cars are! Here's a link for you to check unless you want to tell me this is incorrect!

http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-...calculator.php

1000 feet vs corrected shows a .024 (2/100ths) difference in ET and .2 difference in MPH for a FI car putting in 11.5 and 120 as the base run time! 2000 feet is .093 and .984MPH, and so on! Go crazy and put in 3,000 for DA and it's corrected .16 ET and 1.7MPH for FI car while the NA car is .414 ET and 4.57MPH corrected! Big difference at almost 38% more for NA cars! A tenth isn't a big difference to me from one run to another, but 4/10ths sure as hell is!

I noticed this on my old SC Challenger! I would run very close to the same times in various weather conditions! However my NA Camaro would go way quicker in better weather!

If it's 100 degrees out I'm in the AC shop preparing the car for a run in nicer weather!

Lol. You know it all! Here's the deal. The supercharger creates much more heat. With the new cars and the ECU they will pull timing down the track! If you drive the car to the track it compounds the issue if you don't allow the car to cool completely down before you run it! You can deal with your hypothetical calculators if you want I'll deal with what I see at the track in the real world! I've watch my 5th gen run 11.40 in 45degree weather and 11.90 in 100 degree weather! I don't give a damn about your calculator! Like I said come down here and run in this 100 degree weather with 90 percent humidity and you will find out how much difference it makes! You act like you know what the 17 ZL1 runs when the owners don't even know yet. None of your hellcats are out running me down here yet. I don't know what will happen when it cools down but I can only assume we will all get better times! As for me looking at your tail lights you better run a lot better than the guys down here and you better be able to nail the tree every time that's one thing I specialize in! I'm not one that owns a car and don't take it to the track like you keep referring to!

[HAMMERHEAD15]

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

The biggest reason the Demon can't reproduce Dodges numbers is track prep. Watch the video I posted about the secret to the Demon where Dodge has their own track prep specialist make the track so sticky for it you can hardly walk on it.

Speedy is right about DA differences between forced induction and NA cars. My track sessions at my home track prove his point perfectly. Earlier in the summer, I made several passes, learning the best way to launch my car with the stock tires. Best run was 11.52 with a 1.8 60' with a 3500 DA. Ran it again a couple weeks ago with exactly half that DA, had the same track prep as I had the exact same 1.8 60' and I only gained .1 and ran an 11.40. Had I been in a NA car, it would've been a much larger drop in time.

What was your mph?

[HAMMERHEAD15]

Y'all post some time slips showing the date time and track and we can see what the DA was when you ran. I'm thinking these corrected figures are for the old supercharged motors with carb. Or manual fuel injection.

[17CamaroZL1]

The single slip was in 3500 DA, which you can look up if you want

[NicD]

I think to settle this you guys need to only compare identical stock times. I'm talking identical DA, identical temperature, identical fuel level, identical tire pressure, identical coolant temp, identical oil temp, identical driver weight, identical times that you take a shit because that can really throw it off if you have to pinch a loaf at the starting line. That way you can be sure you are the bestest totally stock track time out there for sure!

Yeah... all joking aside this is why I hate a "fastest stock" list because it really means nothing. People cheat, people are in different locations across the country with variable air, variable gas, variable traction levels, variable tracks that are much faster than others.

Stock means stock, modified means modified, and of course DA plays a big role in supercharged applications very similar albeit slightly less than N/A applications. The only time DA doesn't really play much of a role in track times is with turbo cars that aren't compressor limited.

[17CamaroZL1]

Here are my first 2 and last 2 passes of 7 back to back passes I made on the 3500 DA day.

Guess my best passes on those days were closer to 1.9 60's, but either way, you can tell the traction was pretty much the same both days.

[HAMMERHEAD15]

It's obvious the DA has a major effect! What do you think your car would run in -1200 DA?

[17CamaroZL1]

I don't know if I'd call .1 and 1.5 mph a major effect, but it was a pretty good gain, for sure.

Well, from those slips, 1700 DA difference gained me about .1 second and 1.5 mph, so if we drop close to 3000 feet like you ask, it makes sense to guess it would double that to .2 and 3 mph. So if we are talking traction/launch being identical, that'd put it at an 11.2 at 127.5 mph. Now if we go off of my best ever, which I ran at Bowling Green, and I can manage the same 60' of 1.78 (or hopefully my best 60 of 1.73) then I should be looking at a possible 10.99 at 129.5 or so. Of course this all just hypothetical guesses, but it should be close to that if everything falls into place. I'm hoping I can do better than that and make that 10 happen this weekend. I really feel like I'll run around an 11.10 this weekend if the track prep is as good as it was last time over there, but hoping I can somehow manage an even better 60' than last time, and get that 10.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

I wasn't saying dr's and removing tq management. I'm saying the tq management lifted may be a better mod than dr's for the ZL1. As far as what the next hc or whatever fca makes we're talking about the here and now the rest is all speculation. I do believe RPM supposedly went 10.9? with some kind of tire a few months back not sure what they used though.

^^^Right. From what I've read, the torque management is hindering 60 times on the ZL1. Especially the M6 cars.

If drag radials allow the Hellcat to put down the engines power better then the ZL1 should be able to tune out torque management. The engine is still stock after all.

This is why stock means stock. Better tracks with better DA will achieve better times but you get a clear picture of what the car will do. Hero runs and bad runs are on the outside of the bell curve. The ZL1 is still too new to see the picture but the average of 30 SS A8 cars show that on average they run 12.1.

[96MrBass]

Exactly ^ what are the AVERAGE passes made in these cars because it's about consistency. So you ran your car and your BEST pass is a 10.8? or whatever. You can't possibly match it every pass. " Or at least I can't lol " So far on average the ZL1 seems pretty consistent.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

So all that to say, I stand by my point to give the car the tire it needs for the horsepower it has to give it the best chance of maximizing it's available HP. If you guys are strictly interested in tracking a list on this forum that requires stock tires, that's fine, but don't fool yourself in to thinking that's reality with regards to drag racing in the real world with drag racers.

If you guys wanna be serious about stock performance on street tires, there should be a "no prep" requirement in the rules as well, and by no prep I mean never prepped, like run the drag strip backward for example, or go out to a runway. Not very practical, but that's the only way to remove track prep differences from track to track from the metric you guys are comparing yourselves against. Or you could just allow proper tires

I could not agree with you more regarding the need for better tires on cars like the HC to get the power to the ground. And, I don't think anyone is fooling themselves thinking that a true 'stock' configuration tire-wise is the real world when truly drag racing competitively.

It's really just about the semantics of what is stock and what is not. The need is there for better tires on these cars and no one can deny that. Putting DRs or slicks on also has very well proven performance benefits.

But that ain't stock... it IS better performance wise. But it still is not stock.

So, if one goes to the track with his stock tired ZL1 or HC and thinks that it will do the best it will do against an identical ZL1 or HC that has a tire upgrade he definitely would be fooling himself. I don't think anyone who buys these cars is that dumb?

And once you open the Pandora's Box of mods that begin with a simple tire change - a change that is certainly justifiable - you have a modded car. Slightly modded, yes. But still not stock.

And that is all I and others are saying. YES - you absolutely NEED better tires on a car like the HC to get the most out of it at the track. I think a tire change would be the FIRST mod anyone would/should do to a car like that.

But NO, that is no longer a 'stock' car once you do from a truly technical viewpoint.

Stock/as delivered is a great equalizer of sorts. All cars come stock from the factory. But if you put 315 DRs on your HC and Billy Bob puts 12" slicks that are shorter in height to 'change' the gear ratio on his, where is the equalization in that? There is not any. You would have to specify something about tread design, tire height/width, etc for things to be equal again if you agree that Driver A can mod his car with a tire of his choosing while Driver B wants to go bigger, stickier, etc.

'Stock' - while seemingly unfair to those with more HP than others - does indeed exist from a puritanical perspective and thus ensures that all who meet that requirement have equal opportunity to attain a performance target of their choosing while being compared with their peers who have cars equally set up as in, pure 100% as delivered off the showroom floor 'Stock'.

'Modded' - well, there is where the fun begins. And that's why that Pandora's Box is so enticing.

It's all good.