[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I agree with your point about 'adding horsepower' is no longer stock. But, if using DRs is ok in your opinion what about the guy that puts on slicks? It's a tire change, right?

Nearly every car out there needs a better tire to use the horsepower 'the factory gave you' for the most part and when you are in the 650-700+ range that is no question.

But - it is also no question that changing the tire to a drag radial or slick means the car is no longer 'factory stock'. That's not saying it isn't needed because it is.

I agree that Dodge really screwed the pooch on the HC with putting those skinny tires on it but that is what it comes with and therefore is what is considered 'stock'. Yes, if I buy a HC a tire size/type will be the FIRST mod BUT - I will not argue that it is still stock.

Others apparently feel differently.

Slicks are fine by me if the car requires it to put the power it came with from the factory to the ground. You're still relying on the factory horse power the car came with to get the job done.

Proper tires also remove the track prep variable as I've mentioned previously.

I'm basing this on personal experience. I had a design goal for my old Challenger R/T to have 550RWHP and run 11.50 in the 1/4 mile. When I started building the car I had almost no track experience and just got some summer tires and did my thing. I went to the track and kept running low 12s at 120+. I'd fish tail, wheel hop, and pucker up hoping I could keep it out of the wall shifting to 3rd in the M6 600RWHP car and went home frustrated most of the time. It wasn't enjoyable or satisfying and folks were questioning the power the car made etc.

A buddy let me borrow some DRs and boom, 11.40s at 123+MPH. I bought a cheap setup and became consistent 11.40s and now everyone was talking about how much power the car had and how well it was performing. Next I tried a slick setup and it was 10.90s which was a mile stone I didn't expect and far exceeded my goal. 10 second street car and was obviously ecstatic. There were changes a long the way, and the biggest was changing pulleys. The DRs had been giving me 11.40s and I added 2 or 3 pound of boost with a pulley swap and thought I'd go faster. This ended up being too much for the DRs and I actually went slower, with higher MPH. I could no longer get in to the 11s as the car would spin at every shift. Just that little bit was putting the tires over the edge. Swapped to slicks and shaved 8/10th my first pass on them vs the DRs with the extra boost back to back same track same day about 30 minutes a part on the runs. Tires were the only change.

60 foots went from 2.2+ on the summer tires to 1.8x on the DRs to 1.5x on the slicks with almost no other changes (clutch for durability and a TB I think at that time). That experience really opened my eyes and I'm thankful for it. I was eventually able to dial in the driving to get consistent times to within a couple 1/100ths over and over and could now understand how any performance changes I made impacted my times (throttle body, tune changes for air conditions, etc) and eventually got the car to run consistent 10.80s at 127-129MPH. It was pretty eye opening for me as I just kept wanting to add power initially, but I started listening to folks who had more experience than I, and learned from them, and as a result I had one of the fastest 6 speed Challengers we knew of with a solid reputation. I was also now leaving the track having had a great time and satisfied I was getting everything the car had to offer on any given day.

I skipped right over the street tires on the Hellcat, as I now know and understand what's needed for a 600+RWHP car to try and get the most out of it's performance at the track. I'll jump straight to that in the Hellcat and push forward from there looking for consistency.

A lot of people that never go to the track don't understand this, I don't blame them as I didn't either at one time. I have a buddy with a 750RWHP Challenger and he ran 12s at 128MPH on his summer tires and couldn't understand why, older guy kinda new to drag racing, so I put my slicks on his car and bam 10.30s and 134MPH his very next pass. He came back from the timing tower eyes wide as saucers and he tried to buy my slicks from me on the spot.

So all that to say, I stand by my point to give the car the tire it needs for the horsepower it has to give it the best chance of maximizing it's available HP. If you guys are strictly interested in tracking a list on this forum that requires stock tires, that's fine, but don't fool yourself in to thinking that's reality with regards to drag racing in the real world with drag racers.

If you guys wanna be serious about stock performance on street tires, there should be a "no prep" requirement in the rules as well, and by no prep I mean never prepped, like run the drag strip backward for example, or go out to a runway. Not very practical, but that's the only way to remove track prep differences from track to track from the metric you guys are comparing yourselves against. Or you could just allow proper tires

[96MrBass]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I agree with your point about 'adding horsepower' is no longer stock. But, if using DRs is ok in your opinion what about the guy that puts on slicks? It's a tire change, right?

Nearly every car out there needs a better tire to use the horsepower 'the factory gave you' for the most part and when you are in the 650-700+ range that is no question.

But - it is also no question that changing the tire to a drag radial or slick means the car is no longer 'factory stock'. That's not saying it isn't needed because it is.

I agree that Dodge really screwed the pooch on the HC with putting those skinny tires on it but that is what it comes with and therefore is what is considered 'stock'. Yes, if I buy a HC a tire size/type will be the FIRST mod BUT - I will not argue that it is still stock.

Others apparently feel differently.

Might as well throw some skinny wheels and tires up front to lol it's only tire's

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

Might as well throw some skinny wheels and tires up front to lol it's only tire's

How about tuning out the factory torque management?

"...if the car requires it to put the power it came with from the factory to the ground."

[HAMMERHEAD15]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

That is a good point. I dont track DA as close as some since FI cars make their own atmosphere for the most part. Youre right its still a factor though.



Id give you the DRs but SC cars can pick up 30-40 rwhp with a cai so its no bueno for comparison sake. What was your MPH difference stock vs DR and cai? Interestingy Hellcat doesnt gain anything with a cai which was a surprise, must be due to the open headlight.

So your saying DA doesn't make a big difference in a forced induction motor? Your crazy as hell! It makes a huge difference! That's a good portion of the reason the demon can't even come close to reproducing the 9.65! Come down to Florida where it is 100 degrees at night and see how much your cars slow down! Unless you have a very special car you might run mid 11's with a stock Hellcat on a tire that is not a DR or slick. None of them down here are doing it! And most are running upper 11's. Just a fact where we are at here!

[HAMMERHEAD15]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I agree with your point about 'adding horsepower' is no longer stock. But, if using DRs is ok in your opinion what about the guy that puts on slicks? It's a tire change, right?

Nearly every car out there needs a better tire to use the horsepower 'the factory gave you' for the most part and when you are in the 650-700+ range that is no question.

But - it is also no question that changing the tire to a drag radial or slick means the car is no longer 'factory stock'. That's not saying it isn't needed because it is.

I agree that Dodge really screwed the pooch on the HC with putting those skinny tires on it but that is what it comes with and therefore is what is considered 'stock'. Yes, if I buy a HC a tire size/type will be the FIRST mod BUT - I will not argue that it is still stock.

Others apparently feel differently.

What about the guy that puts shorter tires on to change rearend ratio?

[96MrBass]

Originally Posted by hotlap

How about tuning out the factory torque management?

"...if the car requires it to put the power it came with from the factory to the ground."

It'll be VERY interested to see tq management lifted as it seems to hamper the Z. I don't understand some people's thinking give car A what it desperately needs and tell car B owner to take the same MOD.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by HAMMERHEAD15

So your saying DA doesn't make a big difference in a forced induction motor? Your crazy as hell! It makes a huge difference! That's a good portion of the reason the demon can't even come close to reproducing the 9.65! Come down to Florida where it is 100 degrees at night and see how much your cars slow down! Unless you have a very special car you might run mid 11's with a stock Hellcat on a tire that is not a DR or slick. None of them down here are doing it! And most are running upper 11's. Just a fact where we are at here!

You can find that online for yourself plain and simple! Go do a little research before spouting off! FI cars are less affected by DA than NA cars are! Here's a link for you to check unless you want to tell me this is incorrect!

http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-...calculator.php

1000 feet vs corrected shows a .024 (2/100ths) difference in ET and .2 difference in MPH for a FI car putting in 11.5 and 120 as the base run time! 2000 feet is .093 and .984MPH, and so on! Go crazy and put in 3,000 for DA and it's corrected .16 ET and 1.7MPH for FI car while the NA car is .414 ET and 4.57MPH corrected! Big difference at almost 38% more for NA cars! A tenth isn't a big difference to me from one run to another, but 4/10ths sure as hell is!

I noticed this on my old SC Challenger! I would run very close to the same times in various weather conditions! However my NA Camaro would go way quicker in better weather!

If it's 100 degrees out I'm in the AC shop preparing the car for a run in nicer weather!

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

It'll be VERY interested to see tq management lifted as it seems to hamper the Z. I don't understand some people's thinking give car A what it desperately needs and tell car B owner to take the same MOD.

It's likely helping it, 11.0 - 11.2 on street tires isn't bad. Turn down TM and now you need something else (DR?), it's on and on. We won't know until someone tries a better tire to see if times improve and if so by how much.

It's not about giving one car what it needs and handicapping the other. It's removing a handicap.

Like I've said several times, the tire compound offered to the Demon, which is a DR, will likely be an option on the Hellcat here soon and we can all forget this tire debate once and for all. New published factory times for Hellcats will be 10.80s or better when this occurs.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by HAMMERHEAD15

So your saying DA doesn't make a big difference in a forced induction motor? Your crazy as hell! It makes a huge difference! That's a good portion of the reason the demon can't even come close to reproducing the 9.65! Come down to Florida where it is 100 degrees at night and see how much your cars slow down! Unless you have a very special car you might run mid 11's with a stock Hellcat on a tire that is not a DR or slick. None of them down here are doing it! And most are running upper 11's. Just a fact where we are at here!

The biggest reason the Demon can't reproduce Dodges numbers is track prep. Watch the video I posted about the secret to the Demon where Dodge has their own track prep specialist make the track so sticky for it you can hardly walk on it.

Speedy is right about DA differences between forced induction and NA cars. My track sessions at my home track prove his point perfectly. Earlier in the summer, I made several passes, learning the best way to launch my car with the stock tires. Best run was 11.52 with a 1.8 60' with a 3500 DA. Ran it again a couple weeks ago with exactly half that DA, had the same track prep as I had the exact same 1.8 60' and I only gained .1 and ran an 11.40. Had I been in a NA car, it would've been a much larger drop in time.

[96MrBass]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

It's likely helping it, 11.0 - 11.2 on street tires isn't bad. Turn down TM and now you need something else (DR?), it's on and on. We won't know until someone tries a better tire to see if times improve and if so by how much.

It's not about giving one car what it needs and handicapping the other. It's removing a handicap.

Like I've said several times, the tire compound offered to the Demon, which is a DR, will likely be an option on the Hellcat here soon and we can all forget this tire debate once and for all. New published factory times for Hellcats will be 10.80s or better when this occurs.

I wasn't saying dr's and removing tq management. I'm saying the tq management lifted may be a better mod than dr's for the ZL1. As far as what the next hc or whatever fca makes we're talking about the here and now the rest is all speculation. I do believe RPM supposedly went 10.9? with some kind of tire a few months back not sure what they used though.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

It's likely helping it, 11.0 - 11.2 on street tires isn't bad. Turn down TM and now you need something else (DR?), it's on and on. We won't know until someone tries a better tire to see if times improve and if so by how much.

It's not about giving one car what it needs and handicapping the other. It's removing a handicap.

Like I've said several times, the tire compound offered to the Demon, which is a DR, will likely be an option on the Hellcat here soon and we can all forget this tire debate once and for all. New published factory times for Hellcats will be 10.80s or better when this occurs.

Not sure about the standard Hellcat, but I have seen where Dodge is claiming the wide body Hellcat will run that time. Not sure if that's a drag radial or just a wider street tire. My guess is it's a wider street tire on one of their specially prepped tracks.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

I wasn't saying dr's and removing tq management. I'm saying the tq management lifted may be a better mod than dr's for the ZL1. As far as what the next hc or whatever fca makes we're talking about the here and now the rest is all speculation. I do believe RPM supposedly went 10.9? with some kind of tire a few months back not sure what they used though.

RPM did go 10.9 with a tire only on the ZL1, then knocked a second off of that with nitrous. Not sure if they were running drag radials or slicks. I guess I can't say for 100% certainty that they didn't tune the car any with just the tire, but that's what they led me to believe when they were talking about it. They just posted another video of that same car running a 9.4x at 148 with headers, heads, cam, pulley, tune, and tires.....no nitrous this time.

I think you're right about TM being a needed mod for the ZL1, but not until you have a better gripping tire or some of Dodges track prep.

[Sven59]

I think the ZL1 is just missing NHRA certification, that will probably bring it down to 10.5.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[96MrBass]

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

RPM did go 10.9 with a tire only on the ZL1, then knocked a second off of that with nitrous. Not sure if they were running drag radials or slicks. I guess I can't say for 100% certainty that they didn't tune the car any with just the tire, but that's what they led me to believe when they were talking about it. They just posted another video of that same car running a 9.4x at 148 with headers, heads, cam, pulley, tune, and tires.....no nitrous this time.

I think you're right about TM being a needed mod for the ZL1, but not until you have a better gripping tire or some of Dodges track prep.

Man! They continue to impress with that car imo anyway lol. I think they ran the 10.9 with 17" weld's also.