[mdmoore23]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Stock tires is a silly argument. I guess it keeps the egos from being put in their place. At the track (drag strip) we call 600+hp cars with stock tires "wall bangers". But hey, it was wrecked on stock tires.

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I have a Camaro 2SS as well as the Hellcat, so I have no reason not to want to see the ZL1 do well. The Gen5 ZL1 was a joke and I'm hoping Chevy got it right this time.

What I have a HUGE problem with is all the mis-informed, stick their heads in the sand, fanboys out there, and that goes for this forum and others I'm on, but this one is one of the worst. I've heard the Vette forum takes all the cake, but I could care less about a Vette and would never own one so don't care about those folks. I have friends with Vettes and most fit the stereotype perfectly.

There was a ZL1 vs Hellcat thread started back in the winter and all the fanboys on this site were jumping up and down at how the ZL1 was gonna whip the Hellcat. Then the power at 650 was announced and I posted that wasn't gonna be enough. I hadn't even considered torque mgmt at that time, but seems that's going to be the real challenge as well.

Now folks are leaning on the stock tire as an excuse knowing Dodge handicapped the Hellcat with crappy tires that NO ONE that is serious uses.

I wanna see what the ZL1 can do on real tires so all the excuses are taken away and we know what it's capable of. Seeing what it can do on stock tires is fine and good, but that is NOT the benchmark for the car. Stock tires are a compromise between engineers, lawyers, and bean counters when you're talking OEM spec. Dodge engineers flat out said they'd use DRs on the Hellcat hands down, hmmm why didn't it come with them then? Demon has them and you have to sign a 10 page waiver to buy the car LOL.

I'm passionate about cars as well as forum post accuracy so forgive me if I seem a little fired up at times. I've been through a lot of this myself and had to learn. I thought I was gonna magically run 11s in my old Challenger with a built motor and a supercharger on street tires. It was an M6 to boot and people tried to tell me but I didn't believe them because I was uneducated. 6 trips to the track and never getting better than a 12.2 was a real eye opener especially considering the trap speed was over 120. Later I saw the light, swapped tires and ran 10.80s in the end. Yes my driving also improved, but the 60' went from 2.2 to 1.5.

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

Who cares besides folks who live their lives in the pages of Motor Trend and never get out to do any real racing? Don't be so cheap and get a set of real wheels and tires for the track. Real racers know better LOL I learned that lesson 10 years ago, but it did take real world experience for me to understand 600+ RWHP cars need purpose built tires at the track. It makes you look silly to those in the know just FYI so if you're in to that kinda thing best not to post it all over the forum haha.

Ok, that last comment may be a bit harsh, and I'm kidding, not really, but seriously

If the ZL1 never gets out of the 11s on stock tires, well.....feel for you guys as it sounds like that will be your benchmark and it's really limiting potential.

Don't know where you guys have been over the last few months, but here's what the A10 can do on stock tires. I think the mph was determined to be a little off at that track that day but the et is correct. In better air, how can anyone say 10's aren't possible. Just because Hellcats absolutely need drag radials, doesn't mean every car does. I know the Hellcat Pirellis suck, but are they that bad that you absolutely cannot grasp that there's a car out there with power like this that can actually put it to the ground. And also, C7Z06's frequently run 10's on stock tires too.

https://youtu.be/Lcu41obbTf8

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I wanna see what the ZL1 can do on real tires so all the excuses are taken away and we know what it's capable of. Seeing what it can do on stock tires is fine and good, but that is NOT the benchmark for the car. Stock tires are a compromise between engineers, lawyers, and bean counters when you're talking OEM spec. Dodge engineers flat out said they'd use DRs on the Hellcat hands down, hmmm why didn't it come with them then? Demon has them and you have to sign a 10 page waiver to buy the car LOL.

Totally agree. Tires, IMHO seem to be a grey area when it comes to considering them as a mod or not. They don't add any power, or reduce weight, they just enable you to use more of what you have. In the case of the Hellcat vs ZL1 debate, the Hellcat is much more hindered with it's factory tires than the ZL1 is. Drag radials make a huge difference with the Hellcats. While they will make a difference on the ZL1, I don't believe they will make as big of a difference because the ZL1 isn't hindered as much as the Hellcat is by the factory rubber.

I am personally curious how the cars would compare when they both have full traction and are able to utilize 100% of their capabilities. Basically, put drag radials on both, and run 'em.

[IneedAZ]

I believe the consensus is the zl1 isn't showing as much gain on DR as the HC cause the zl1 seems to have more tq management going on from the factory.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Yes, they heat soak and the et's will slow when you make back to back to back passes. Just the nature of the beast.

We may be talking past each other on this piece. When I think heat soak, I think timing pull in the tune, etc. I have reviewed the spark tables for the Hellcat at length and was SHOCKED at how aggressive Dodge tuned this thing. Tons of timing in the stock tune for what I'm used to seeing in a FI car, and the timing adjustment tables don't kick in until the temps are off the charts for IAT and ECT. Pretty nutty.

I was doing some testing in the Hellcat yesterday and did several back to back pulls through 3-4 gears. Temps were 90+ and humid. The Intake Manifold Air Temp only changed by 15° from start to finish. These were 50 - 150MPH runs.

The car "may" drop a tenth or so at the track just due to the air not being able to be compressed quite as much in the blower case, but that's not really heat soak IMO. I'll do my own testing with data logs here soon and will have more information to go on as I've not been able to fully test the Hellcat just yet. I have watched friends hot lap their cars and the times were VERY consistent, however.

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

I don't know how the gen 5 Z is a joke. Consistent mid 11's bone stock times, 7.28 'ring time, 1.03 skidpad, phenomenal braking and superior riding and driveability.

Nobody is preventing anyone form throwing dr's and skinnies on a Z. But then it's a one trick pony. My comment was for comparison's sake: stock for stock. You want to make it better for track, strip, or launch...all the more power to you. Just comparing bone stock for bone stock...before thousands, or tens of thousands are spent on mods.

I had to look at your profile and see you have a Gen 5 ZL1, so sorry if this ruffles your feathers, but they are slow cars for a supposed 580HP. I ran my Gen 6 2SS against one last November. The guy's Zl1 had DRs on it and I was bone stock even tires. I ran a 12.4 @113MPH and he ran 12.2 @ 113MPH. Same track same day, same everything so I'm less than impressed with the Gen 5 ZL1. They're also well known for heatsoaking and losing boat loads of power pretty quick. We have a friend with one and he struggled to ever hit 11s, finally ran a 11.99 I think but MPH was still sub par at around 115 or so in perfect weather, cooled off car, etc.

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Stock tires is a silly argument. I guess it keeps the egos from being put in their place. At the track (drag strip) we call 600+hp cars with stock tires "wall bangers". But hey, it was wrecked on stock tires.

That's the point there. The Gen 6 ZL1 may have tires adequate for the power. We'd need to see some testing against a DR to know for sure. I tried Nitto Invos (220 rating) and they were dangerous at the strip on the old Challenger I had (600RWHP). I'm sure the ZL1's torque mgmt is much more sophisticated so maybe the stock tires are "OK". Time will tell. Anything under a 1.8 60' is not bad IMO, 1.6 would be really good.

Originally Posted by mdmoore23

Don't know where you guys have been over the last few months, but here's what the A10 can do on stock tires. I think the mph was determined to be a little off at that track that day but the et is correct. In better air, how can anyone say 10's aren't possible. Just because Hellcats absolutely need drag radials, doesn't mean every car does. I know the Hellcat Pirellis suck, but are they that bad that you absolutely cannot grasp that there's a car out there with power like this that can actually put it to the ground. And also, C7Z06's frequently run 10's on stock tires too.

https://youtu.be/Lcu41obbTf8

11.2 is farther from 10s than you think. It doesn't just happen. That MPH being so far off would make me question the time as well, but another guy in this thread has done pretty good so we'll call it low 11s and all agree. He was also at my home track so I trust those times. The point you make about the ZL1 maybe having tires suitable to it's power delivery is a good one and mentioned above as well.

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

Totally agree. Tires, IMHO seem to be a grey area when it comes to considering them as a mod or not. They don't add any power, or reduce weight, they just enable you to use more of what you have. In the case of the Hellcat vs ZL1 debate, the Hellcat is much more hindered with it's factory tires than the ZL1 is. Drag radials make a huge difference with the Hellcats. While they will make a difference on the ZL1, I don't believe they will make as big of a difference because the ZL1 isn't hindered as much as the Hellcat is by the factory rubber.

I am personally curious how the cars would compare when they both have full traction and are able to utilize 100% of their capabilities. Basically, put drag radials on both, and run 'em.

And you take out any factors such as how engineering likely wanted a better tire and the lawyers and bean counters wouldn't allow it.

Originally Posted by IneedAZ

I believe the consensus is the zl1 isn't showing as much gain on DR as the HC cause the zl1 seems to have more tq management going on from the factory.

Again, good point.

One final thing to remember, is that when talking drag racing, track prep has a HUGE impact on what some tires are capable of. My local track Beech Bend is stingy with track prep unless it's a private track rental and you pay the $18 a gallon fee for them to spray. So other than a bit of rubber on the surface we have almost zero prep. It's not forgiving so you have to have a tire than can cope with it or you just leave frustrated.

Best 60' I've gotten with the stock tires in the 2SS was a 1.88 and a 12.093 @ 114MPH. Which isn't bad, but not great. I put worn 555Rs on the Hellcat and it was 2.1 so terrible. Still ran an 11.55 though at 124. If I can get that 60' down to what I used to get in my old Challenger with good tires on it (1.5x) that's in the 10.70 range with a simple tire change. Each tenth on the 60' is worth .15 - .20 on the big end, so it's material.

It takes time, effort, and money to go to the track. I wanna know I'm getting the maximum I can get from the car and not be at the mercy of how much prep has been applied. If they put some down, bonus points.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by IneedAZ

I believe the consensus is the zl1 isn't showing as much gain on DR as the HC cause the zl1 seems to have more tq management going on from the factory.

The Nannies are preventing the ZL1 from putting enough power to the tire. It it weren't for Nanny, the car would show the need for DR's.

[IneedAZ]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

The Nannies are preventing the ZL1 from putting enough power to the tire. It it weren't for Nanny, the car would show the need for DR's.

Agree and frustrating, but understand why Chevy did it.

[Speedy1975]

^^ I'm inclined to agree, but curious how 60 foots will look as folks get practice. Poster on page 1 got 1.7X which ain't bad. 1.6 would be really good and on par with a street biased DR like the 555R. Going to a MT ET 2 would net better results but those aren't really practical for street use IMO.

People think as the air cools the times will improve, and they may, but the tires will also have more of an issue as track surface cools.

[Fraxum]

Bring all your A10 (and M6!) ZL1s to Atco this Fall Any Tuesday night. $25 to set some ZL1 records. T&T runs Friday as well but the track has better prep Tuesday for the Gamblers which are mostly fast slick tired cars. But you can run as a Gambler and maybe make some $$. T&T is $25, Gamblers dial in on Tuesday is $40 I think. You might get 4-10 runs on any given night And 3 more guaranteed as a Gambler.

We get into the -1,000 to -1,500 DA at 8-10 PM on a crisp fall night. There are usually plenty of Hellcats to race and 2 or more 10 second Coyotes. No 10 second CA6 SSes I have seen.

Hope to see you there!

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by mdmoore23

Don't know where you guys have been over the last few months, but here's what the A10 can do on stock tires. I think the mph was determined to be a little off at that track that day but the et is correct. In better air, how can anyone say 10's aren't possible. Just because Hellcats absolutely need drag radials, doesn't mean every car does. I know the Hellcat Pirellis suck, but are they that bad that you absolutely cannot grasp that there's a car out there with power like this that can actually put it to the ground. And also, C7Z06's frequently run 10's on stock tires too.

https://youtu.be/Lcu41obbTf8

Auto Hellcats don't need DRs for 10s at Atco. Seen it more than once. I think A10 ZL1s will be able to do it too. Give it time.

[96MrBass]

Originally Posted by IneedAZ

I believe the consensus is the zl1 isn't showing as much gain on DR as the HC cause the zl1 seems to have more tq management going on from the factory.

This exactly, every car is different give a hellcat the tire's and a ZL1 may benefit more from a tune or a cai. In my opinion these are all mods and if you choose either you're trying to GAIN SOMETHING.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

This exactly, every car is different give a hellcat the tire's and a ZL1 may benefit more from a tune or a cai. In my opinion these are all mods and if you choose either you're trying to GAIN SOMETHING.

No way. Tunes, CAI, etc all change the POWER the car makes. Whole different ball game than just putting tires on it. Give the car the tires it needs to use the power it has and let's race and see what's what. Then we can start modding LOL.

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Auto Hellcats don't need DRs for 10s at Atco. Seen it more than once. I think A10 ZL1s will be able to do it too. Give it time.

Man I wish. Atco is like the Unicorn track LOL I can't even imagine -1000 DA much less -1500!!

[big dave]

I hear a lot of complaints about torque management, maybe I just don't know what it is, but the worst 60' I've ever pulled with my car has been a 1.89, which was on my first pass ever. After that, I'm generally in the mid 1.7s. Once I turn all the nannies off, I don't seem to get any interference from the computer government. The video that has been floating around is that of my car. I too doubted the 130 mph but have backed it up with 128.9 on a warmer day, and few 127s. I've posted that I believe that this car will run 10s on street tires in perfect conditions, I'm even more of a believer now that I've spent a little more time with the car. It just seems to be getting faster even in the terrible heat we've been getting on the east coast. Only time will tell.

Ultimately do I see the ZL1 being as quick as the Hellcat with both wearing drag radials? No, but I have no doubt that the power deficient ZL1 will still be in the 10s, maybe a tenth or two behind the dodge...but still in the 10s. I've got a set of drag radials from my 5th gen that I hope will fit the new Z, when the weather gets good, we will all know for sure what this puppy is capable of. .

Another thing I read on here is how slow the 5th gen ZL1 is; yes, the new SS will give it a run for the money, but I still think the 5th gen is quicker. Just like any other car, good conditions and a good driver are very important. My 5th gen had become a consistent 11.7 car in ok conditions, stock. I don't think that 11.59 was the best it could run. I believe in the hands of a capable, lighter driver, 11.4s are possible in the right conditions.

[IKILLEDSUPERMAN_ZL1]

Has anyone with a M6 gotten consistently under 2.0 60 foots??

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

The Gen 6 ZL1 may have tires adequate for the power. We'd need to see some testing against a DR to know for sure. I tried Nitto Invos (220 rating) and they were dangerous at the strip on the old Challenger I had (600RWHP). I'm sure the ZL1's torque mgmt is much more sophisticated so maybe the stock tires are "OK". Time will tell. Anything under a 1.8 60' is not bad IMO, 1.6 would be really good.

I hope drag radials will improve traction quite a bit more, but won't know until I try them. I can't decide on which way I want to go......swapping DRs onto my stock wheels or getting a set of 17" or 18" wheels and tires to bolt on for track days. The only way to know what kind of difference a DRs make would be to get a separate set of wheels so I could test both on the same day, so I may go that route.

The grippy Goodyears and torque management make for a perfect street setup! Even if you get a little too eager on the launch and spin the tires, the car will still accelerate hard.

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

11.2 is farther from 10s than you think. It doesn't just happen. That MPH being so far off would make me question the time as well, but another guy in this thread has done pretty good so we'll call it low 11s and all agree. He was also at my home track so I trust those times. The point you make about the ZL1 maybe having tires suitable to it's power delivery is a good one and mentioned above as well.


One final thing to remember, is that when talking drag racing, track prep has a HUGE impact on what some tires are capable of. My local track Beech Bend is stingy with track prep unless it's a private track rental and you pay the $18 a gallon fee for them to spray. So other than a bit of rubber on the surface we have almost zero prep. It's not forgiving so you have to have a tire than can cope with it or you just leave frustrated.

I didn't know Beech Bend was your local track! You didn't happen to come up for Street Car Takeover when I made my best passes to date, did you?

Compared to my local track in London, the track prep seemed great that day.