[1LEMATT]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

If a vendor sells a product to "protect" a NEW motor, but a solution voids a warranty, they should at least inform their clients of this trade off.
Especially, if they decide to raise the subject of shortened warranties to start with, as any warranty beats no warranty. As to "noise" a lot of info posted is just that, as it doesn't pertain to Camaro specific motor, nor results from a single test can be applied as representative of thousands LT1 motors produced. If that were the case, I'd never buy my car as Vintage had just lost his motor at COTA. Just like I am yet to see any sludge come out during oil changes. The sky is not falling and if valve cleaning is a requirement for DI motors: so be it as it is not a big deal. Losing warranty is. Note that DI specific can requires drilling, which further complicates this aspect.
Cheers!

We get you are afraid of "losing" your warranty, but I mean it takes like 15 minutes to remove a Mishimoto catch can. So if it worries you, just remove it before a dealer visit. Pretty simple if you ask me no?

Also, no vendor is obligated to say their product may void your warranty. It is up to the consumer to know this. I mean you don't see American Racing Headers saying, "oh hey our headers will void your warranty!". I mean some things are just common sense. Also, for something like a simple catch can, it would depend on the dealer. Mine is fine with them, heck my previous Corvette had one on it, and I left it on, and they fixed a lifter issue I was having under warranty, no questions asked.

But, let us not forget that it is pretty much a proven fact DI motors do get to varying degrees of oil blow by and build up, and that a good catch can set up does in fact limit this. There is no denying this...hence why I use them.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by 1LEMATT

We get you are afraid of "losing" your warranty, but I mean it takes like 15 minutes to remove a Mishimoto catch can. So if it worries you, just remove it before a dealer visit. Pretty simple if you ask me no?

Also, no vendor is obligated to say their product may void your warranty. It is up to the consumer to know this. I mean you don't see American Racing Headers saying, "oh hey our headers will void your warranty!". I mean some things are just common sense. Also, for something like a simple catch can, it would depend on the dealer. Mine is fine with them, heck my previous Corvette had one on it, and I left it on, and they fixed a lifter issue I was having under warranty, no questions asked.

But, let us not forget that it is pretty much a proven fact DI motors do get to varying degrees of oil blow by and build up, and that a good catch can set up does in fact limit this. There is no denying this...hence why I use them.

Well said and agree that catch cans can serve a purpose especially for motors which suffer in some design areas. Indeed they've been around for a long time and did benefit some motors. My issue here is some claims as far as keeping valves clean in DI motors, as I haven't been able to find any reliable test data wrt this specific item. Unfortunately what Elite posted doesn't help much either in this regard. Also agree that the warranty can be a toss up depending on a dealer, issue, etc. Personally I have bought my 1LE as means of worry free track car, so de-installing a can in the middle of a 6 lane hiway should a motor take a $hit there is not my idea of risk/reward. Neither is a potential litigation with GM.

But, we are all free to make our choices and I fully understand and respect that. What irks me is when vendors market a product based on "data" which sounds good on surface, but doesn't necessarily represent given reality.

In any case, I have hammered this pony enough and cant really add any value other than to say:

There are still a few key questions that have been left unanswered in this thread specifically to our cars. So, unless one really understands the pros/cons and risks involved - don't let the marketing alone lead ya over the (potential) warranty cliff.

Happy motoring!

[Elite Engineering]

Hey all,


If we missed answering any specific question, just ask.


We provide data so the consumer actually can learn all there is to know about these and other engines. We could just do "sales pitches" like most all others, but that then leaves a huge gap in the what, why, and where of all that is involved with PCV systems and today's GDI engines. We understand that there will always be some that will make decisions based on assumptions and opinions, that is just sales, but we have invested a huge amount of time and money into the R&D we provide. Not only do we want to make sure we are providing the proper and best solution possible, but we want the consumer to understand it all as well and not just blindly trust claims and advertisements. This data provided is as consumer friendly as we can make it, but without actual data to support any claims made, they are just that, claims. We also realize a few do not believe we or any vendor should do anything considered "sales pitches", but then this forum would not exist as we pay monthly to support it and cover the expenses as other supporting vendors do as well.


As for Warranty, there has only been ONE documented case, and that was proven to be done w/out cause as it related to an oil pump failure (common on LS engines) and the dealer diagnosed a blown engine, which was also wrong when the owner replaced the oil pump himself and all was good. Yes, the dealer illegally voided his warranty. And the law is on your side as laid out on the FTC's website.



Here is some of what the FTC has listed to educate and protect consumers not aware of the law, and this is a Federal law:


https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance


As we have sold 10's of thousands of our systems over the decades, and we only offer emissions compliant systems that in no way can have a negative effect on the engine or anything else related, it IS illegal for a dealer to void your warranty for the installation and use of one of our systems. That said, there are many unscrupulous dealers and the best advice is do some research and avoid the bad ones, and patronize the good ones. There are more good ones than bad ones, but if you ever become the victim of a bad one, a simple letter from a Magnuson/Moss Law Firm is usually all that's needed to set a dealer straight, but no guarantee's.


As for Trackclub, your in Canada, so this law does not protect you, but we sell a ton of these systems to both Canadian dealers and oil field fleet vehicles to avoid the issues that affect all GDI engines. And for those in the US, this law does protect you, but YOU must become educated on it. I am sure trackclub is as adamant to tell people changing wheels, mufflers, cold air intakes, and spark plugs that they are also in his opinion "voiding" their warranty, but history shows different.


These have zero downside, and plenty of easily identified benefits. And as many have stated, if in doubt, remove it before visiting the dealer. Only takes minutes.

Also, if you become the victim of an unscrupulous dealer, here is what the FTC suggests:

• Complain. If you think a dealer's service advisor denied your warranty claim unfairly, ask to speak with a supervisor. If you still aren't satisfied, contact the manufacturer or go to another dealer. You also may wish to file a complaint with your state Attorney General, local consumer protection office, or the FTC.

[shawndean22]

catch can is not needed, of course it will have oil in it... I am sure engine will last if kept stock without one.... you plan on keeping the car for 10-15 years doubt anyone actually will....

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Hey all,


If we missed answering any specific question, just ask.


We provide data so the consumer actually can learn all there is to know about these and other engines. We could just do "sales pitches" like most all others, but that then leaves a huge gap in the what, why, and where of all that is involved with PCV systems and today's GDI engines. We understand that there will always be some that will make decisions based on assumptions and opinions, that is just sales, but we have invested a huge amount of time and money into the R&D we provide. Not only do we want to make sure we are providing the proper and best solution possible, but we want the consumer to understand it all as well and not just blindly trust claims and advertisements. This data provided is as consumer friendly as we can make it, but without actual data to support any claims made, they are just that, claims. We also realize a few do not believe we or any vendor should do anything considered "sales pitches", but then this forum would not exist as we pay monthly to support it and cover the expenses as other supporting vendors do as well.


As for Warranty, there has only been ONE documented case, and that was proven to be done w/out cause as it related to an oil pump failure (common on LS engines) and the dealer diagnosed a blown engine, which was also wrong when the owner replaced the oil pump himself and all was good. Yes, the dealer illegally voided his warranty. And the law is on your side as laid out on the FTC's website.



Here is some of what the FTC has listed to educate and protect consumers not aware of the law, and this is a Federal law:


https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance


As we have sold 10's of thousands of our systems over the decades, and we only offer emissions compliant systems that in no way can have a negative effect on the engine or anything else related, it IS illegal for a dealer to void your warranty for the installation and use of one of our systems. That said, there are many unscrupulous dealers and the best advice is do some research and avoid the bad ones, and patronize the good ones. There are more good ones than bad ones, but if you ever become the victim of a bad one, a simple letter from a Magnuson/Moss Law Firm is usually all that's needed to set a dealer straight, but no guarantee's.


As for Trackclub, your in Canada, so this law does not protect you, but we sell a ton of these systems to both Canadian dealers and oil field fleet vehicles to avoid the issues that affect all GDI engines. And for those in the US, this law does protect you, but YOU must become educated on it. I am sure trackclub is as adamant to tell people changing wheels, mufflers, cold air intakes, and spark plugs that they are also in his opinion "voiding" their warranty, but history shows different.


These have zero downside, and plenty of easily identified benefits. And as many have stated, if in doubt, remove it before visiting the dealer. Only takes minutes.

Also, if you become the victim of an unscrupulous dealer, here is what the FTC suggests:

• Complain. If you think a dealer's service advisor denied your warranty claim unfairly, ask to speak with a supervisor. If you still aren't satisfied, contact the manufacturer or go to another dealer. You also may wish to file a complaint with your state Attorney General, local consumer protection office, or the FTC.

Elite, please post your data so we can "learn all there is to know about these" (Camaro) engines. This is what a few have asked and never got any answers for, including the very first post in this thread (OP) - looking fwd to finally reading some of your R+D results - thanks in advance!

As far as warranty being voided and there being only "ONE documented" case...presumably you are referring to the Camaro case last year which lost oil pressure. Well, this is NOT by any means the only documented case (notwithstanding some guy posting on a blog is not really "documentation" of any means whatsoever). There are cases of different manufacturers refusing warranty for various reasons, including but not limited to incorrect installations.

As far as law and FTC - it is primarily for the reason to allow non EOM parts of equal standard to be used for repairs lest all non OEM manufacturers would be out of biz. This is also to ensure that any modified part that is unrelated to a failed component is not used as a reason to void a warranty.
But there is a "but: and hence it is very wise of you to insist that WE (consumers) become educated on the law as it is not "black and white" and there is this little important detail (your link doesn't work for me btw): "

"...under the act, aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not automatically void a vehicle manufacturer's original warranty, UNLESS THE WARRANTY CLEARLY STATES THE ADDITION OF AFTERMARKET EQUIPMENT AUTOMATICALLY VOIDS YOUR WARRANTY". Note: there is a stipulation that a manufacturer has to prove that an aftermarket part caused a failure, but that's ONLY if their warranty doesn't carry the previous statement.

I will be damned but my GM Warranty booklet says just that. And I am sure this is not news to you. So my question stands: have you asked GM to be on their authorized list? Some manufacturers indeed permit non OEM parts, but they must be installed by them. I am sure you are aware of this.

Regardless of the law, GM estimates 70 days to go through an arbitrage process should there be a disagreement. And at the end, if they stick to their guns, they can just wait for a client's lawyer to call their many lawyers. AND THATS WHERE THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATON ENDS subject to courts decision(s).
Of course such process would likely take several months, at least.
And even in criminal law, you are assumed innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean you are not waiting for your day in court in a jail cell.


Lastly, please send me a contact or two of your oil fleet sales in Canada - I am sure they wont mind giving you references and I would love the opportunity to get more insight re their results, as I have other DI vehicles as well - and I spend plenty if time out West.

PS Please don't assume you know what i'd do, or say, as it makes you look less of a professional. And FYI I have purchased your products in the past, so I am a customer... Cheers!

[zryan]

Bruh if GM approved Elite but we had to have the dealership install it I would be in the dealership tomorrow. That would give me such piece of mind. Dont they both have the same goal? Take care of the car so it runs better and costs them less?!

[Elite Engineering]

Originally Posted by zryan

Bruh if GM approved Elite but we had to have the dealership install it I would be in the dealership tomorrow. That would give me such piece of mind. Dont they both have the same goal? Take care of the car so it runs better and costs them less?!

I wish it was that easy, but we have spoken to the engineers at the Milford proving grounds at GM. They said they can't even get owners to change their own oil, how can they get owners to check/empty a Catch Can?

[Elite Engineering]

Elite, please post your data so we can "learn all there is to know about these" (Camaro) engines. This is what a few have asked and never got any answers for, including the very first post in this thread (OP) - looking fwd to finally reading some of your R+D results - thanks in advance!

Answers below after each point/question:

As far as warranty being voided and there being only "ONE documented" case...presumably you are referring to the Camaro case last year which lost oil pressure. Well, this is NOT by any means the only documented case (notwithstanding some guy posting on a blog is not really "documentation" of any means whatsoever). There are cases of different manufacturers refusing warranty for various reasons, including but not limited to incorrect installations.


For the Elite Engineering Catch Cans, that is the ONLY case documented and brought to our attention. Be aware that MOST catchcans on the market can give legitimate grounds to void your warranty, as any with a breather or vent of any kind defeat a portion of the OEM PCV systems functions and open it to vent to the atmosphere being illegal for any street use in the US. But our systems are designed to enhance the factory system and meet ALL emissions guidelines in the US. We do not have CA CARB cert yet due to cost involved.

As far as law and FTC - it is primarily for the reason to allow non EOM parts of equal standard to be used for repairs lest all non OEM manufacturers would be out of biz. This is also to ensure that any modified part that is unrelated to a failed component is not used as a reason to void a warranty.
But there is a "but: and hence it is very wise of you to insist that WE (consumers) become educated on the law as it is not "black and white" and there is this little important detail (your link doesn't work for me btw): "

"...under the act, aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not automatically void a vehicle manufacturer's original warranty, UNLESS THE WARRANTY CLEARLY STATES THE ADDITION OF AFTERMARKET EQUIPMENT AUTOMATICALLY VOIDS YOUR WARRANTY". Note: there is a stipulation that a manufacturer has to prove that an aftermarket part caused a failure, but that's ONLY if their warranty doesn't carry the previous statement.

I will be damned but my GM Warranty booklet says just that. And I am sure this is not news to you. So my question stands: have you asked GM to be on their authorized list? Some manufacturers indeed permit non OEM parts, but they must be installed by them. I am sure you are aware of this.



GM nor ANY other automaker can specify only GM parts be used. This is a violation of the Federal Antitrust laws and cannot be an enforceable part of any warranty from automobiles to vacuum cleaners. This is to prevent any manufacturer of any consumer product sold in the US to hold captive a owner for any repairs or maintenance. We have not ask GM to be on any approved list as there is no need. The GM dealers that sell and install our systems all honor the warranty. Abusive examples are dealers voiding warranties for an owner changing their own spark plugs or oil changes, exhaust parts, air filters, etc. Do a Google search for the FTC guide to automotive warranties and further Federal Antitrust laws.

Regardless of the law, GM estimates 70 days to go through an arbitrage process should there be a disagreement. And at the end, if they stick to their guns, they can just wait for a client's lawyer to call their many lawyers. AND THATS WHERE THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATON ENDS subject to courts decision(s).
Of course such process would likely take several months, at least.
And even in criminal law, you are assumed innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean you are not waiting for your day in court in a jail cell.


The FTC is very clear on how and where to file a legal complaint. It is all there on the FTC site.


PS Please don't assume you know what i'd do, or say, as it makes you look less of a professional. And FYI I have purchased your products in the past, so I am a customer... Cheers!


And to clarify, most anything you could want to know is covered in earlier posts on this thread so were not just repeating it as far as the engines, actual studies, testing, etc.

We just want you to clarify that with your arguments here that ANY aftermarket or Non GM part would void the warranty in your scenarios. And we all know that is not the case. You put out some great questions and points here. And as another example, Kia recently was fined for requiring owners ONLY use their Kia oil filters and oil....which was a clear violation as well. So it is a slippery slope, but nothing a automaker prints can circumvent Federal Law period.

[zryan]

Elite its okay you can trust when I get it installed I will empty. And when it goes to dealership there will be no catch can installed.

[Elite Engineering]

Originally Posted by zryan

Elite its okay you can trust when I get it installed I will empty. And when it goes to dealership there will be no catch can installed.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Elite, please post your data so we can "learn all there is to know about these" (Camaro) engines. This is what a few have asked and never got any answers for, including the very first post in this thread (OP) - looking fwd to finally reading some of your R+D results - thanks in advance!

Answers below after each point/question:

And my answers to yours are underlined

As far as warranty being voided and there being only "ONE documented" case...presumably you are referring to the Camaro case last year which lost oil pressure. Well, this is NOT by any means the only documented case (notwithstanding some guy posting on a blog is not really "documentation" of any means whatsoever). There are cases of different manufacturers refusing warranty for various reasons, including but not limited to incorrect installations.


For the Elite Engineering Catch Cans, that is the ONLY case documented and brought to our attention. Be aware that MOST catchcans on the market can give legitimate grounds to void your warranty, as any with a breather or vent of any kind defeat a portion of the OEM PCV systems functions and open it to vent to the atmosphere being illegal for any street use in the US. But our systems are designed to enhance the factory system and meet ALL emissions guidelines in the US. We do not have CA CARB cert yet due to cost involved.

Fair enough, yet your original statement made it read as if there was one case period. Thank you for clarifying there is only one that pertained to your product - that you are aware of.


As far as law and FTC - it is primarily for the reason to allow non EOM parts of equal standard to be used for repairs lest all non OEM manufacturers would be out of biz. This is also to ensure that any modified part that is unrelated to a failed component is not used as a reason to void a warranty.
But there is a "but: and hence it is very wise of you to insist that WE (consumers) become educated on the law as it is not "black and white" and there is this little important detail (your link doesn't work for me btw): "

"...under the act, aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not automatically void a vehicle manufacturer's original warranty, UNLESS THE WARRANTY CLEARLY STATES THE ADDITION OF AFTERMARKET EQUIPMENT AUTOMATICALLY VOIDS YOUR WARRANTY". Note: there is a stipulation that a manufacturer has to prove that an aftermarket part caused a failure, but that's ONLY if their warranty doesn't carry the previous statement.

I will be damned but my GM Warranty booklet says just that. And I am sure this is not news to you. So my question stands: have you asked GM to be on their authorized list? Some manufacturers indeed permit non OEM parts, but they must be installed by them. I am sure you are aware of this.



GM nor ANY other automaker can specify only GM parts be used. This is a violation of the Federal Antitrust laws and cannot be an enforceable part of any warranty from automobiles to vacuum cleaners. This is to prevent any manufacturer of any consumer product sold in the US to hold captive a owner for any repairs or maintenance. We have not ask GM to be on any approved list as there is no need. The GM dealers that sell and install our systems all honor the warranty. Abusive examples are dealers voiding warranties for an owner changing their own spark plugs or oil changes, exhaust parts, air filters, etc. Do a Google search for the FTC guide to automotive warranties and further Federal Antitrust laws.

You are correct, but FTC and Magnuson Act specifically deals with REPLACEMENT parts. There is NOTHING in the Act that protects the consumer should they start to "improve", or "change" original design of a vehicle, or start bolting on ADDITIONAL parts (doesn't matter if it is catch can or a blower, both represent EXTRA parts over and above the OEM design and the Act absolutely doesn't protect the consumer in any such case! The act actually makes it legal for manufacturers to make exceptions and limitations to their warranties but such must be clearly spelled out in the Warranty Manual (which they are).

The only sure way of doing same (changing an OEM design AND retaining warranty) is to ensure the parts are authorized and installed by GM. For example, installing a Lingenfelter blower via a GM authorized dealership wont void your warranty. But installing a non authorized one at a non GM shop sure as heck will. The same goes putting a Roush blower on a Stang vs getting another make and doing it yourself. And since you chided me about spark plugs and tires...well, in the same spirit of the LAW, if you slapped slicks on and experienced suspension failure (and couldn't take them off before towing a vehicle to a dealer - read:cheat) they could absolutely refuse to fix it under warranty as the OEM suspension design may not be robust enough to handle such high G forces. As a matter of fact the GM warranty speaks of that. OTOH if the same failure occurred with SIMILAR tires to OEM S3s, the warranty should stand. That's the purpose and spirit of the Act. NOT to allow folks to modify their rides beyond OEM specs and still enjoy full warranty if things go pear shape.

So, since one can purchase your product from GM and have it installed at GM, and have the warranty intact, why not suggest THAT as the best way of getting your product in the first place? And why even remotely suggest one should take it off before any warranty claims?

Regardless of the law, GM estimates 70 days to go through an arbitrage process should there be a disagreement. And at the end, if they stick to their guns, they can just wait for a client's lawyer to call their many lawyers. AND THATS WHERE THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATON ENDS subject to courts decision(s).
Of course such process would likely take several months, at least.
And even in criminal law, you are assumed innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean you are not waiting for your day in court in a jail cell.


The FTC is very clear on how and where to file a legal complaint. It is all there on the FTC site.

Of course it is! And it says, the process specified in the Warranty Manual must be clear and must be followed before a case can be brought to courts. And then it specifies the level of courts to be used, etc. FTC establishes a law, but it is lawyers who interpret it and then represent their respective parties in a court. Just like in any other legal case. Read the FTC Magnuson Act (55 pages), or for a fast cheat sheet read a 1 page version published in July 2015 (the latter only deals with items an industry wanted to revise/clarify vs a whole act, so best to read the 55 pages).



PS Please don't assume you know what i'd do, or say, as it makes you look less of a professional. And FYI I have purchased your products in the past, so I am a customer... Cheers!


And to clarify, most anything you could want to know is covered in earlier posts on this thread so were not just repeating it as far as the engines, actual studies, testing, etc.

Disagree! You have not posted a single study, data point, or result that deals with a Camaro LT1. And the latter is how this whole thread started. And this OP question still remains unanswered. So as you had stated you have tons of data on "THESE" motors, please post some!


We just want you to clarify that with your arguments here that ANY aftermarket or Non GM part would void the warranty in your scenarios. And we all know that is not the case. You put out some great questions and points here. And as another example, Kia recently was fined for requiring owners ONLY use their Kia oil filters and oil....which was a clear violation as well. So it is a slippery slope, but nothing a automaker prints can circumvent Federal Law period.

That is NOT my argument at all. The law pertains to REPLACEMENT parts (referred to as non-OEM, or aftermarket, or recycled).
The law does not deal with one having a right to change GM's DESIGN and then expect GM to warranty it. That's apples and oranges.


*********Do send me your oil patch fleet contacts please. thanks and cheers!

[1LEMATT]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

That is NOT my argument at all. The law pertains to REPLACEMENT parts (referred to as non-OEM, or aftermarket, or recycled).
The law does not deal with one having a right to change GM's DESIGN and then expect GM to warranty it. That's apples and oranges.


*********Do send me your oil patch fleet contacts please. thanks and cheers!

Jesus man, we are all well aware of the fact you don't want a catch can...and that is your choice, but you are becoming like a broken record in this thread. Just move on!

[MAGAUSA]

Originally Posted by 1LEMATT

Jesus man, we are all well aware of the fact you don't want a catch can...and that is your choice, but you are becoming like a broken record in this thread. Just move on!

[Jamesg89]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

That is NOT my argument at all. The law pertains to REPLACEMENT parts (referred to as non-OEM, or aftermarket, or recycled).
The law does not deal with one having a right to change GM's DESIGN and then expect GM to warranty it. That's apples and oranges.


*********Do send me your oil patch fleet contacts please. thanks and cheers!

I would never give out any of my customer contracts or any customer information period to anyone outside of my company. I very highly doubt Elite would either, as that is just bad business. Just because you don't want a catch can, does not justify the need for them to send you anything from their customers.