[oldman]

Originally Posted by SS2017

Must be 1970 Chevelle SS or something.

http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-s...own.html#/trim

AFAIK Chevy has only made one SS model....

[Cuda7050]

"So let me know what you think is "misinformation", that Civic SI, Miatas, beat out RSXs killed the 1LE by like 8 seconds in the last autoX? "

"I just attended the first season autoX, the factory 1LE 2017 was absolutely totally completely destroyed by stock Miatas, FRS, Civic SI et all..."


Well who ever was driving the 1LE must really suck, because at our autoX events the 1LE's absolutely hang with and often beat the four bangers mentioned in stock trim.

[SS2017]

Originally Posted by oldman

um I think the last autoX the 1le was like 8 seconds behind the SI, the beat out RSX and the stock Miata... and within .5 second of a pair of Challengers (V6 and SRT), results are not posted yet... soon. Autox will be in full swing over the next two weeks..

See now I think you are just making crap up. You are talking about a new SS 1LE? Was the driver a complete novice tool going up against seasoned drivers? That is the ONLY possible explanation. Equal driver to equal driver all of those other cars wouldn't even be on the same planet...

I mean a SI ahead by 8 seconds, and a fat turd of a V6 Challenger just .5 behind?

Originally Posted by oldman

... try to apply anything approaching WOT throttle during transit response or on turn exit means it is ditch time...

It really seems like you just don't know good car control. I have none of these issues, and I don't even have a SS 1LE with the eLSD. Are your tires bald? Wrong psi? Alinement off? Makes no sense to me otherwise...I spend almost every weekend in the canyon with my car and I push it to the max...it has very good grip.

[SS2017]

Originally Posted by Cuda7050

Well who ever was driving the 1LE must really suck, because at our autoX events the 1LE's absolutely hang with and often beat the four bangers mentioned in stock trim.

For real...I just went to my first one of the season, the guy there had a new SS 1LE (who traded in a C6 Z06) and he was running nearly identical times. Car was very fast...the Miatas on tires were even off his times. Driver skill is HUGELY important with a fast, powerful car. A slower, lower powered car is much easier to handle.

[SuperSound]

Can we get back to the topic? Anyone believing the LX cars in any stock trim are comparable on a track or road course to a 6th gen 1LE or even an SS is deeply misinformed (with same driver). There is no debate.

[SS2017]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Can we get back to the topic? Anyone believing the LX cars in any stock trim are comparable on a track or road course to a 6th gen 1LE or even an SS is deeply misinformed (with same driver). There is no debate.

Sorry, but when I read oldmans post I nearly spit out my water and had to respond.

And you are correct!

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by oldman

As viable as any other 10 second daily driver claim IMO...




The Challenger line make excellent albeit aging daily drivers, 1/4 mile cars and daily performace cars. IMO since I've owned both (two Challengers since 2009), the Camaro is a more toss-able controllable car... that said if you want to pretend you are a hairy chest macho man and king of canyon carving, with traction control off, the Camaro is more than 99.99% of what a real man can handle in the twistiest. So that leaves how well does the Camaro perform with traction control on... um bout the same as a Challenger, sure you can brake harder into a turn, but you want to exit the turn by applying the throttle, it ain't happening with either car.

I just attended the first season autoX, the factory 1LE 2017 was absolutely totally completely destroyed by stock Miatas, FRS, Civic SI et all...

So dunno, clearly the 6th gen is dominant on long road races, I personally doubt this equates to an equal gap in street manners.

Street fun um both the Challenger and Camaro are fun, both are traction limited, the Camaro has an edge but not enough to really make up for the compromises for many.

1st) The Dodge can be had in 4 door and the Charger is IMO a clearly better car than the SS
2nd) The Challenger has WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY better ride from stock to crazy stiff suspension.
3rd) The Challenger has seating for 5 and can actually sit 4 reasonably size adults. My kids can't even fit in the back of the Camaro... so really it is a 2 seater.
4th) both cars are traction limited in all aspects. The Camaro can brake harder and later into a turn...but NEITHER car can take throttle out of the turn and neither car can be safely driven without traction control. Power on and WOT is completely unavailable with both rides sans traction control in terms of long term use. yes I'm sure there are real men that are exiting corners all the time with no traction control, but we all know that is pure fantasy. My 6th gen is completely and totally traction limited unless completlye straight with completely stable chassis ( no transitions like from a corner exit) and completely smooth shifting and needs a slow application of throttle... ie a lot of work. So is the 6th gen a faster / quicker DD, um neither can be driven sans traction control.. I have about 1000 or 1500 blast upto 75 MPH on my 6th gen, I'm pretty confidant I have evaluated the true street manners of the Camaro... bout 5000 to 10,000 blast upto 75 ish on my Challengers...

The last autoX from last year was at a road race track. The RWD driven by Joe Average, were in general all over the place and that included the weeds, cause many or all of us "racers" can't handle little hills and dipps on a RWD platform... you know like the REAL ROAD.




I don't get how you switch from the Demon as impracticable, to all Challengers and now to all Fiats... dunno.

Congratulations - you have an understanding of truly driving a car and can also write well. However, I'm going to be blunt with you. What you mention about throttle coming out of a corner, not using traction control and you're "autox experience" is lacking.

1. Yes, it is quite possible to use ample throttle, coming out of a turn, in the Camaro and Challenger, with or without traction control and stability control. This is true even on the factory GY SC RF tires.

2. The cars are un-driveable at a high level without traction control? Please.

3. You're basing some random person's driving, one (1) person, on what the 2017 1LE can do? What's this driver's experience level? What's the experience level of the driver's of the other cars you mentioned?

The Challenger is a big girl, but, I will say, it doesn't get credit where credit is due many times. The suspension offerings on the L-platform cars is fairly well engineering. The chassis is pretty good to (please read, "pretty good"). Tire grip/load optimization for performance... this is where the Challenger will always fall behind. Outside of the factory wheel wells is one thing, but inside, you cannot properly fit a wheel and tire package to accommodate anything larger than a 275 on the car. This becomes a problem with a 2-ton vehicle that has 400+ lb/ft torque.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SS2017

Sounds like you or whomever you are referring to is just a below average driver. As anyone with any skill can immediately tell there is a huge difference between the two cars in a situation like that. I mean the Challengers weight alone is a huge disadvantage and will make the car move around much more even with the nannies on.

I'm saying with traction control off, neither car is tossable, never said that driven by a professional on an open road race that the cars (either) could be controlled. On the street in spirited driving neither chassis is easily controlled, given extensive mods or factory boost.

Yes chassis difference is immediately noticed: braking and turn-in.. but power on exit or during transit response is dicey at best with mods (both chassis).

Once we admit that traction control is going to be left on by the vast majority of performance buffs the vast majority of time on the street, the difference between the two cars is smaller than road race times would hint at.

Huge difference in braking and turn-in but not a huge difference in the ability to apply power out of a turn or in transit response or just accelerating. Is this important on a road race... yep big time. Is it important when comparing overall driving experience.. dunno I clearly said that vs trade offs many people are going for, more room, better ride, etc.

Originally Posted by SS2017

So this "autoX" you attended had these cars all in the same class? Same driver to same driver it wouldn't even be close. I have seen a few SS 1LE's running at autoX events already (as I run my SS), and they are beasts and are putting down fantastic times. Only reason any of the cars you mentioned would beat one would be a massive driver skill difference. A fast driver in a slow car will beat a slow driver in a fast car any day.

agreed, but we are talking car and not driver. The results will be out and we will know at the end of the year. IMO, it will be a more open / larger AutoX that will favor the 1le.

Originally Posted by SS2017

4 doors doesn't make for a better car, that is just an opinion. Common sense would tell you from a chassis standpoint which is a "better" car.

I'm just noting that the Dodge can be had in both 2 door and 4 door with the same chassis while the Chevy SS 4 door is IMO not as good as the Charger. I never posted that 4 doors makes a better car. I noted that owners are saying that room and ride make more sense to them than the better Camaro street manners.
Challenger / Charger: ride, ability to see out of, room. Clearly there is NO debate on these three?
Camaro, better handling, braking, control into turns. Clearly better

Camaro small advantage, acceleration mod for mod

Originally Posted by SS2017

Say what? What do you qualify as a "better" ride? Have you driven a SS with MRC (not sure if yours has it)? I had a Challenger SRT8 before my Mustang, and it's ride was similar to my Mustang, but my SS's is vastly better and has more of a change from tour to track. Must more composed and smooth too.

hmm 4400 lbs on 255/45 tires rides the same as 3700 lbs on 275 / 40s

Originally Posted by SS2017

Again, this just seems like a driver skills issue, or a crappy road surface. I have no issues putting the power down and modulating the throttle in my SS with the TC totally off. It is a very easy car to control and even steer with power induced oversteer.

Great for you, then I'm Joe Average because my car is all over the road anywhere in the first two gears.. I guess I don't have the modulating the throttle thing down. You obviously are the .01% of the man's man that I referred to in my first post. I post several videos of sub 4 second 0-60s with my in-ability to control the throttle... just saying.

Originally Posted by SS2017

Do you know what "autoX" is? AutoX is not ran on road race tracks where cars go off in the "weeds" and have "little hills and dips".

I clearly said the last autoX (of last year) happened to be at a road race course which ahem means it was a "road race". But to your point I've seen many of RWD cars at a flat autoX go into the weeds too...

[SuperSound]

So this crate in the new video. Things to swap tires out it seems. Do the LX cars have room for a set of rear tires in the trunk (the 315s on 18" that is)? Do we think the crate will be an option or included?

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

So this crate in the new video. Things to swap tires out it seems. Do the LX cars have room for a set of rear tires in the trunk (the 315s on 18" that is)? Do we think the crate will be an option or included?

They've got plenty of room with the rear seat deleted. Put tiedowns/hold downs back there for race wheels/tires and you're good to go.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Not sure if you knew, as it wasn't a widely publicized thing, but Chrysler used to offer "Core" models of their SRT vehicles. Essentially, an SRT with none of the creature comforts and what not.

They're called Scat Packs now

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

They've got plenty of room with the rear seat deleted. Put tiedowns/hold downs back there for race wheels/tires and you're good to go.

Yea I figured with a rear seat delete there would be plenty. Maybe not without. Maybe the crate will come with the rear seat delete.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by oldman

Are we talking Demon specific which we have scant data or a Challenger?

If you are talking Challenger, NVH is excellent, the steering and suspension is 12 years old but it is the BEST Benz design to date IMO, dunno about the brakes, my Challenger cop brakes at $250 were HUGE at 13.78 rotor size... is that big enough for 1/4 mile and street car... you know the post I'm replying to...
.well yes.

Seat, yeah the seats are heavy and I can see why tossing the passenger side and rear ones out make sense. Maybe replace passenger side with light weight Recaro or similar. Many track focused cars do just that.

I'm building a rear seat delete for my Challenger. Saves quite a bit. No one's ever ridden in the back of mine in 8 years.

I wanted these for the front seats. Two of these equal one of the originals. Even come heated. The problem.....$$$$$$$$$$$ Sure are pretty though!



Or just make the passenger and rear seats super easy to remove. Less than 10 minutes. That's how I'd design it if I were in charge.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Congrats. That still doesn't make the Demon a viable street car.

It's just FCA doing what FCA does best. Generate headlines by producing extreme performance products with good marketing to conceal the fact that they can't build normal cars to save their lives and the balance sheets are becoming worse and worse.

You're just being silly. The Challenger is one of the best "street cars" around for the price point. Fast and comfortable.

Originally Posted by BahamaTodd

Crate:



Looks like everything you need to take it to the drag strip.

Well if it's good enough for the Stig it's good enough for me

[Bhobbs]