[SpeedIsLife]

I kind of view this as the old days when you could get a 70 Challenger optioned out with a 440 Six Pack, 4 speed manual, 4.10 gears and no options..pretty much designed with one purpose in mind.

Daily driver livable? Nope

[oldman]

heck the outboard cars did not have changeable jets, ya had to solder and drill... I had a 440 Dart since high school, just gave it to my buddy from HS as I had no time or room for it. We shared the car for many decades. Loved the 6 pack but really with the performer RPM or M1 mopar performance are better setups... note that the 6 packs had some crazy cross ram setups..

I can't imagine how hard it would be to get this setup running in the north with the temp changes with non jettable carbs...

[oldman]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Congrats. That still doesn't make the Demon a viable street car.

As viable as any other 10 second daily driver claim IMO...

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

It's just FCA doing what FCA does best. Generate headlines by producing extreme performance products with good marketing to conceal the fact that they can't build normal cars to save their lives and the balance sheets are becoming worse and worse.

The Challenger line make excellent albeit aging daily drivers, 1/4 mile cars and daily performace cars. IMO since I've owned both (two Challengers since 2009), the Camaro is a more toss-able controllable car... that said if you want to pretend you are a hairy chest macho man and king of canyon carving, with traction control off, the Camaro is more than 99.99% of what a real man can handle in the twistiest. So that leaves how well does the Camaro perform with traction control on... um bout the same as a Challenger, sure you can brake harder into a turn, but you want to exit the turn by applying the throttle, it ain't happening with either car.

I just attended the first season autoX, the factory 1LE 2017 was absolutely totally completely destroyed by stock Miatas, FRS, Civic SI et all...

So dunno, clearly the 6th gen is dominant on long road races, I personally doubt this equates to an equal gap in street manners.

Street fun um both the Challenger and Camaro are fun, both are traction limited, the Camaro has an edge but not enough to really make up for the compromises for many.

1st) The Dodge can be had in 4 door and the Charger is IMO a clearly better car than the SS
2nd) The Challenger has WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY better ride from stock to crazy stiff suspension.
3rd) The Challenger has seating for 5 and can actually sit 4 reasonably size adults. My kids can't even fit in the back of the Camaro... so really it is a 2 seater.
4th) both cars are traction limited in all aspects. The Camaro can brake harder and later into a turn...but NEITHER car can take throttle out of the turn and neither car can be safely driven without traction control. Power on and WOT is completely unavailable with both rides sans traction control in terms of long term use. yes I'm sure there are real men that are exiting corners all the time with no traction control, but we all know that is pure fantasy. My 6th gen is completely and totally traction limited unless completlye straight with completely stable chassis ( no transitions like from a corner exit) and completely smooth shifting and needs a slow application of throttle... ie a lot of work. So is the 6th gen a faster / quicker DD, um neither can be driven sans traction control.. I have about 1000 or 1500 blast upto 75 MPH on my 6th gen, I'm pretty confidant I have evaluated the true street manners of the Camaro... bout 5000 to 10,000 blast upto 75 ish on my Challengers...

The last autoX from last year was at a road race track. The RWD driven by Joe Average, were in general all over the place and that included the weeds, cause many or all of us "racers" can't handle little hills and dipps on a RWD platform... you know like the REAL ROAD.




I don't get how you switch from the Demon as impracticable, to all Challengers and now to all Fiats... dunno.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

No doubt it will be a collectors item, but more so b/c it will sell in small numbers (generally speaking). I mean this thing is guaranteed to not be as good a seller as the Hellcat because it is purpose built for the strip. Also it could very well be the swan call for big V8 Challenger...or even Dodge if they don't start adapting to the 21st century soon. Either one of those occurring could make this probably the most desirable collector car from this age of domestic V8s.

amen, sad end for a great line of cars...

[detltu]

Originally Posted by oldman

The Challenger line make excellent albeit aging daily drivers, 1/4 mile cars and daily performace cars. IMO since I've owned both (two Challengers since 2009), the Camaro is a more toss-able controllable car... that said if you want to pretend you are a hairy chest macho man and king of canyon carving, with traction control off, the Camaro is more than 99.99% of what a real man can handle in the twistiest. So that leaves how well does the Camaro perform with traction control on... um bout the same as a Challenger, sure you can brake harder into a turn, but you want to exit the turn by applying the throttle, it ain't happening with either car.

I just attended the first season autoX, the factory 1LE 2017 was absolutely totally completely destroyed by stock Miatas, FRS, Civic SI et all...

So dunno, clearly the 6th gen is dominant on long road races, I personally doubt this equates to an equal gap in street manners.

Street fun um both the Challenger and Camaro are fun, both are traction limited, the Camaro has an edge but not enough to really make up for the compromises for many.

1st) The Dodge can be had in 4 door and the Charger is IMO a clearly better car than the SS
2nd) The Challenger has WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY better ride from stock to crazy stiff suspension.
3rd) The Challenger has seating for 5 and can actually sit 4 reasonably size adults. My kids can't even fit in the back of the Camaro... so really it is a 2 seater.
4th) both cars are traction limited in all aspects. The Camaro can brake harder and later into a turn...but NEITHER car can take throttle out of the turn and neither car can be safely driven without traction control. Power on and WOT is completely unavailable with both rides sans traction control in terms of long term use. yes I'm sure there are real men that are exiting corners all the time with no traction control, but we all know that is pure fantasy. My 6th gen is completely and totally traction limited unless completlye straight with completely stable chassis ( no transitions like from a corner exit) and completely smooth shifting and needs a slow application of throttle... ie a lot of work. So is the 6th gen a faster / quicker DD, um neither can be driven sans traction control.. I have about 1000 or 1500 blast upto 75 MPH on my 6th gen, I'm pretty confidant I have evaluated the true street manners of the Camaro... bout 5000 to 10,000 blast upto 75 ish on my Challengers...

The last autoX from last year was at a road race track. The RWD driven by Joe Average, were in general all over the place and that included the weeds, cause many or all of us "racers" can't handle little hills and dipps on a RWD platform... you know like the REAL ROAD.




I don't get how you switch from the Demon as impracticable, to all Challengers and now to all Fiats... dunno.

What?

I'll agree with the people who said the challenger is the best daily driver of the three. The new Demon will clearly not be a great daily driver. Very cool that they are making it though. It will certainly be a collectors item for those that purchase one. I hope they make enough of them that I can actually see one at the drag strip.

[SpeedIsLife]

Keep in mind Fen is likely talking about compacts and midsize cars (IE the former Dart/Avenger/200 etc).

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by oldman

As viable as any other 10 second daily driver claim IMO...




The Challenger line make excellent albeit aging daily drivers, 1/4 mile cars and daily performace cars. IMO since I've owned both (two Challengers since 2009), the Camaro is a more toss-able controllable car... that said if you want to pretend you are a hairy chest macho man and king of canyon carving, with traction control off, the Camaro is more than 99.99% of what a real man can handle in the twistiest. So that leaves how well does the Camaro perform with traction control on... um bout the same as a Challenger, sure you can brake harder into a turn, but you want to exit the turn by applying the throttle, it ain't happening with either car.

I just attended the first season autoX, the factory 1LE 2017 was absolutely totally completely destroyed by stock Miatas, FRS, Civic SI et all...

So dunno, clearly the 6th gen is dominant on long road races, I personally doubt this equates to an equal gap in street manners.

Street fun um both the Challenger and Camaro are fun, both are traction limited, the Camaro has an edge but not enough to really make up for the compromises for many.

1st) The Dodge can be had in 4 door and the Charger is IMO a clearly better car than the SS
2nd) The Challenger has WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY better ride from stock to crazy stiff suspension.
3rd) The Challenger has seating for 5 and can actually sit 4 reasonably size adults. My kids can't even fit in the back of the Camaro... so really it is a 2 seater.
4th) both cars are traction limited in all aspects. The Camaro can brake harder and later into a turn...but NEITHER car can take throttle out of the turn and neither car can be safely driven without traction control. Power on and WOT is completely unavailable with both rides sans traction control in terms of long term use. yes I'm sure there are real men that are exiting corners all the time with no traction control, but we all know that is pure fantasy. My 6th gen is completely and totally traction limited unless completlye straight with completely stable chassis ( no transitions like from a corner exit) and completely smooth shifting and needs a slow application of throttle... ie a lot of work. So is the 6th gen a faster / quicker DD, um neither can be driven sans traction control.. I have about 1000 or 1500 blast upto 75 MPH on my 6th gen, I'm pretty confidant I have evaluated the true street manners of the Camaro... bout 5000 to 10,000 blast upto 75 ish on my Challengers...

The last autoX from last year was at a road race track. The RWD driven by Joe Average, were in general all over the place and that included the weeds, cause many or all of us "racers" can't handle little hills and dipps on a RWD platform... you know like the REAL ROAD.




I don't get how you switch from the Demon as impracticable, to all Challengers and now to all Fiats... dunno.

There is so much misinformation in this post I wouldn't even know where to start...

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

There is so much misinformation in this post I wouldn't even know where to start...

You would have to start with owning a Challenger mild to wild for almost a decade and proceed to a full bolt on SS, salt it with many many decades of 1/4 mile, autoX, and road racing... along with 1/2 million miles of muscle car driving on the street. Toss in owning a full purpose built Type R at 275 HP on 2400 lbs, a supercharged Civic SI 2015 for my other rides....

um I think the last autoX the 1le was like 8 seconds behind the SI, the beat out RSX and the stock Miata... and within .5 second of a pair of Challengers (V6 and SRT), results are not posted yet... soon. Autox will be in full swing over the next two weeks..

Don't need to address ride, the Challenger has a much better ride, from stone stock to crazy stiff.

Room, nope don't need to address that either...

Can the M6 which we both have exhibit controllable behavior? Yep bone stock, I was really impressed with the behavior of the M6, no problem power shifting thru the gears, straight balance chassis. Add full bolt ons and the car can't take wot in 1st and the a good portion of 2nd... if not all of second.. that is in a straight line, try to apply anything approaching WOT throttle during transit response or on turn exit means it is ditch time...

[SS2017]

Originally Posted by oldman

...the Camaro is a more toss-able controllable car... that said if you want to pretend you are a hairy chest macho man and king of canyon carving, with traction control off, the Camaro is more than 99.99% of what a real man can handle in the twistiest. So that leaves how well does the Camaro perform with traction control on... um bout the same as a Challenger, sure you can brake harder into a turn, but you want to exit the turn by applying the throttle, it ain't happening with either car.

Sounds like you or whomever you are referring to is just a below average driver. As anyone with any skill can immediately tell there is a huge difference between the two cars in a situation like that. I mean the Challengers weight alone is a huge disadvantage and will make the car move around much more even with the nannies on.

Originally Posted by oldman

I just attended the first season autoX, the factory 1LE 2017 was absolutely totally completely destroyed by stock Miatas, FRS, Civic SI et all...

So this "autoX" you attended had these cars all in the same class? Same driver to same driver it wouldn't even be close. I have seen a few SS 1LE's running at autoX events already (as I run my SS), and they are beasts and are putting down fantastic times. Only reason any of the cars you mentioned would beat one would be a massive driver skill difference. A fast driver in a slow car will beat a slow driver in a fast car any day.

Originally Posted by oldman

1st) The Dodge can be had in 4 door and the Charger is IMO a clearly better car than the SS

4 doors doesn't make for a better car, that is just an opinion. Common sense would tell you from a chassis standpoint which is a "better" car.

Originally Posted by oldman

2nd) The Challenger has WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY better ride from stock to crazy stiff suspension.

Say what? What do you qualify as a "better" ride? Have you driven a SS with MRC (not sure if yours has it)? I had a Challenger SRT8 before my Mustang, and it's ride was similar to my Mustang, but my SS's is vastly better and has more of a change from tour to track. Must more composed and smooth too.

Originally Posted by oldman

...but NEITHER car can take throttle out of the turn and neither car can be safely driven without traction control. Power on and WOT is completely unavailable with both rides sans traction control in terms of long term use. yes I'm sure there are real men that are exiting corners all the time with no traction control, but we all know that is pure fantasy. My 6th gen is completely and totally traction limited unless completlye straight with completely stable chassis ( no transitions like from a corner exit) and completely smooth shifting and needs a slow application of throttle... ie a lot of work. So is the 6th gen a faster / quicker DD, um neither can be driven sans traction control.. I have about 1000 or 1500 blast upto 75 MPH on my 6th gen, I'm pretty confidant I have evaluated the true street manners of the Camaro... bout 5000 to 10,000 blast upto 75 ish on my Challengers...

Again, this just seems like a driver skills issue, or a crappy road surface. I have no issues putting the power down and modulating the throttle in my SS with the TC totally off. It is a very easy car to control and even steer with power induced oversteer.

Originally Posted by oldman

The last autoX from last year was at a road race track. The RWD driven by Joe Average, were in general all over the place and that included the weeds, cause many or all of us "racers" can't handle little hills and dipps on a RWD platform... you know like the REAL ROAD.

Do you know what "autoX" is? AutoX is not ran on road race tracks where cars go off in the "weeds" and have "little hills and dips".

[SS2017]

Originally Posted by oldman

...many many decades of autoX, and road racing...

Sorry, but going by how you explain and talk about autoX and road racing, I can't say I believe you have any real experience on the subject.

[SpeedIsLife]

oldman...

When you say "SS" are you meaning a Camaro SS or the Chevrolet SS?

Thanks GM for making that a confusing and utterly stupid name.

[SS2017]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

oldman...

When you say "SS" are you meaning a Camaro SS or the Chevrolet SS?

Thanks GM for making that a confusing and utterly stupid name.

Must be 1970 Chevelle SS or something.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I kind of view this as the old days when you could get a 70 Challenger optioned out with a 440 Six Pack, 4 speed manual, 4.10 gears and no options..pretty much designed with one purpose in mind.

Daily driver livable? Nope

Not sure if you knew, as it wasn't a widely publicized thing, but Chrysler used to offer "Core" models of their SRT vehicles. Essentially, an SRT with none of the creature comforts and what not.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SS2017

Sorry, but going by how you explain and talk about autoX and road racing, I can't say I believe you have any real experience on the subject.

my road racing experience is rather limited but I have hundreds of autoX and 1000s of 1/4 mile. Never said I'm a professional, but clearly I can compare how two chassis that I own or owned over 8 years.