[Egon]

Originally Posted by tx6g1le

I spent last year running a mk7 Golf R in local track and AutoX events so I'm pretty new still, especially to RWD platforms like the 1LE. I'm always open to pointers as I've never had any formal training (unless you count Forza and Gran Tourismo, haha).

The event wasn't SCCA sanctioned and put on by a local s2000 enthusiast group. Classifications are very straightforward based on displacement. Anything above 3.9 liters was in my group. They have a handful a year and since this was the first opportunity to run, I took it!

The C6 Z06 that beat me mentioned he doesn't run these very often, mostly HPDE events at a nearby track, which he offered to include me as a guest for much less than I could do on my own!

I just wanted to make sure you were ok with it before saying anything some people don't always take it well, no matter how well meaning it is. Also, this PDR is so fantastic for watching and finding ways to improve. It is going to be a must have for anyone that wants to track their cars.

The biggest thing I noticed right off the bat is you are shifting way too much. On your last run I counted 6 1-2 or 2-1 shifts. (one of them seemed like it might have been by accident though) With the power this engine makes and the speeds you were reaching on this course you should be able to shift into second at the earliest convenient spot and just leave it there the entire time. I would have shifted into 2nd at 11:02 and just left it there the entire run.

You are also very on and off with the throttle and you are getting on it a bit too hard too early when coming out of corners. Roll into the throttle gently as you are unwinding the steering wheel so that you are full throttle just before you are straightening out the wheel. As you can see in the 1st screen capture you are holding the wheel at greater than 90 degrees and you are fully on the throttle here and the TC is probably pulling throttle on you. In addition you are still in 1st gear and it is super easy to get throttle induced oversteer in lower gears.

You are also letting off the throttle and coasting well before braking zones, but this is probably something that you will just get better at as you gain more confidence driving the car. In the second screen cap you can see I tried to approximate the breaking zone with the red lines but you were off the throttle and weren't on the breaks yet well before that spot. In that turn you never really applied the brakes very aggressively either. The 3rd screen cap shows a better spot to start your braking. Somewhere between the cone on the inset video and the skid marks would have been better with a much harder use of the brakes. (you still had a lot of room to brake in a straight line there before the cone) You had varying degrees of this throughout the run but getting more seat time and learning the car better will probably correct it, just be aware of it.

The last spot where I think you could have cut your time significantly was the straightish section after the final slalom at 12:11. I feel like you could have been almost full on the throttle till around 12:17 especially if you had started your turn sooner (around 12:15) and gotten much closer to the pointer cone you pass at 12:16. Then max effort break as your front wheel passes the pointer cone to get around the right hander just after. This one is super hard to explain in a format like this but man this PDR makes it a hell of a lot easier.

I would HIGHLY recommend at your next event to see if you can get a more experienced driver (someone that knows RWD) to drive your car so that you can compare what they do to your laps. (do a run yourself let the other guy drive your can and then you finish up the rest of your runs) I have done this many times and it is invaluable.

I hope you found this helpful.

[Egon]

Also here is one of my runs from last season at zMax in my 5th Gen. I am shifting to second gear even before I clear the timing lights and leave it there the entire run. As I start the back to back "S" sweepers at 0:14 I am part throttle the entire time and rolling in and out from 0:26 to 0:31 where I had to tap the brakes to get around that sharp turn. You can also see at about 0:39 I am rolling into the throttle just a bit too fast and I had to lift just a fraction of a second to keep the rear end from kicking out. Don't watch the slalom at the end though as I am late on just about every cone. Also Hankook tires are LOUD.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Egon

I just wanted to make sure you were ok with it before saying anything some people don't always take it well, no matter how well meaning it is. Also, this PDR is so fantastic for watching and finding ways to improve. It is going to be a must have for anyone that wants to track their cars.

The biggest thing I noticed right off the bat is you are shifting way too much. On your last run I counted 6 1-2 or 2-1 shifts. (one of them seemed like it might have been by accident though) With the power this engine makes and the speeds you were reaching on this course you should be able to shift into second at the earliest convenient spot and just leave it there the entire time. I would have shifted into 2nd at 11:02 and just left it there the entire run.

You are also very on and off with the throttle and you are getting on it a bit too hard too early when coming out of corners. Roll into the throttle gently as you are unwinding the steering wheel so that you are full throttle just before you are straightening out the wheel. As you can see in the 1st screen capture you are holding the wheel at greater than 90 degrees and you are fully on the throttle here and the TC is probably pulling throttle on you. In addition you are still in 1st gear and it is super easy to get throttle induced oversteer in lower gears.

You are also letting off the throttle and coasting well before braking zones, but this is probably something that you will just get better at as you gain more confidence driving the car. In the second screen cap you can see I tried to approximate the breaking zone with the red lines but you were off the throttle and weren't on the breaks yet well before that spot. In that turn you never really applied the brakes very aggressively either. The 3rd screen cap shows a better spot to start your braking. Somewhere between the cone on the inset video and the skid marks would have been better with a much harder use of the brakes. (you still had a lot of room to brake in a straight line there before the cone) You had varying degrees of this throughout the run but getting more seat time and learning the car better will probably correct it, just be aware of it.

The last spot where I think you could have cut your time significantly was the straightish section after the final slalom at 12:11. I feel like you could have been almost full on the throttle till around 12:17 especially if you had started your turn sooner (around 12:15) and gotten much closer to the pointer cone you pass at 12:16. Then max effort break as your front wheel passes the pointer cone to get around the right hander just after. This one is super hard to explain in a format like this but man this PDR makes it a hell of a lot easier.

I would HIGHLY recommend at your next event to see if you can get a more experienced driver (someone that knows RWD) to drive your car so that you can compare what they do to your laps. (do a run yourself let the other guy drive your can and then you finish up the rest of your runs) I have done this many times and it is invaluable.

I hope you found this helpful.

All good pointers.

[MatthewAMEL]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

How did they do the groups that put a Z06 with you? I know in SCCA rules they are in different divisions. But hell yea man looks awesome and good work!

The C5 and C6 Z06 are AS in SCCA classing. Same as the 1LE.

It's one of the reasons why no one expects the 1LE to be competitive nationally.

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL

The C5 and C6 Z06 are AS in SCCA classing. Same as the 1LE.

It's one of the reasons why no one expects the 1LE to be competitive nationally.

I thought he said C7 Z06 in the first post, the Cup2s threw me off. And I think people will be surprised at how well the 1LEs will do against the old Z06s!

[Elevenbravo]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

And I think people will be surprised at how well the 1LEs will do against the old Z06s!

I think they will be competitive locally, but at Nationals you'll see well driven 1LE place midpack at best. CAMC will also be more highly contested this year.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

I thought he said C7 Z06 in the first post, the Cup2s threw me off. And I think people will be surprised at how well the 1LEs will do against the old Z06s!

I owned a C5Z for some ten years. Spent lots of time in the mountains of upstate NY with it when I used to live on Long Island. While at the time it was the best bang for the buck, my SS 1LE definitely has more overall grip and better traction out of the corners and my C5Z had MPSS's. Biggest difference though is the brakes, the SS 1LE brakes are much better and easier to modulate. Power is similar. SS 1LE has more, but C5Z has less weight.

Even driver to even driver a SS 1LE will easily beat a C5Z. C6Z, that will be tuff...it will be close yes, but I think it will be C6Z>SS 1LE>C5Z.

[mjk3888]

I have zero auto cross experince and only have PTM experience with this car on mountain roads, but I would step up from PTM Dry to Sport 1 next time out. To me its much better allowing the E-LSD to assist in rotating the car on exit. PTM dry is so conservative its like coming out of a corner at half throttle or less. I feel like it's designed to keep a novice safe on a large road course, but at autocross its not aggressive enough. I think a lot of time can be made by letting the PTM work more for you than against you.

All that said maybe you already tried it and it wasn't working well enough. Have you experimented with any other PTM modes?

[tx6g1le]

All that said maybe you already tried it and it wasn't working well enough. Have you experimented with any other PTM modes?

I tried them all in the morning runs. I set my best time on Dry which is why I used it in the afternoon runs. I was tired of trying to zero in on the course AND the PTM setting. You're probably right because it did bog down a few times when I left it in 2nd.

The biggest thing I noticed right off the bat is you are shifting way too much.

First, I just want to say thank you! The fact you went through with a fine-toothed comb and captured screen shots! Man, I am grateful! Very nice run by the way and thank you for posting it

Shifting: I attempted to leave it in 2nd in the first and second runs on video. I had some trouble with the car bogging at low speeds (see my first run at 2:13), which is why I decided to try and keep the RPMs above 3k on the last couple runs.

As you can see in the 1st screen capture you are holding the wheel at greater than 90 degrees and you are fully on the throttle here and the TC is probably pulling throttle on you. In addition you are still in 1st gear and it is super easy to get throttle induced oversteer in lower gears.

100% believe you're right and referring back to my previous shifting comment - had I left it in a better PTM mode I may not have had the "bogging" I described under 3k RPM. Great insight!

You are also letting off the throttle and coasting well before braking zones

Question: I'm not sure if you could tell but I ran out of gearing on that stretch in 1st. Should I hold a high RPM in 1st for the length of the "gap" or would you shift into 2nd and continue to accelerate until the breaking zone?

This could not be more true and thank you for shedding light on it. Watching the PDR tell me I was only half on the breaks when I was convinced that I was buried in them was eye opening!

The last spot where I think you could have cut your time significantly was the straightish section after the final slalom at 12:11. I feel like you could have been almost full on the throttle till around 12:17

You see me lose it at 12:08 and I think I was nervous on how much I was going to get away with. I need to push the car much harder to find out what it's capable of.

Great advice and thanks again. Since the next opportunity will be an SCCA event with more drivers, I'll ask around for an experienced ride along.

TL;DR I need to actually use my breaks, stop shifting, and utilize a lower "nanny" mode on the PTM.

[mjk3888]

Just a note. Of the 3 highest modes on PTM (Sport 1, Sport 2, and Race) only Sport 1 has active handling enabled. This is where its helping you avoid overrotating the car. I might even try running PTM in Sport 2 to get a feel for the actual rotation and behavior of the car without any nanny interference. You still get the benefit of traction control and eLSD but its not trying to fight a slide it will let the car drift if pushed hard enough.

I personally will be using autocross as a safe environment to test the limits of the car. If I lose it at an autocross I may get a cone or two, but if I lose it at a track I put it in a sand trap or even hit a wall. So I might even run with everything off or PTM in race moded and get a feel for the car then start to dial the PTM in.

Again take this all with a grain of salt since I'm not an auto cross expert.

[Ryephile]

Some excellent advice in here! I only want to add that when you're driving, you shouldn't ever be waiting for the next thing to do [except a straightaway on a track]. If you're not turning, braking, or on the throttle, then you're wasting time. Braking should be immediately after throttle with no discernible lag, other than the time it takes to move your foot. All the better if you learn to left-foot brake. In short, your car should always be at the peak of its friction circle, whether its lateral, accel, or decel. Smooth transitions between each is what makes you quick.

I'll second the motion about being simpler with gearing. If you're not sure, be in the higher gear and leave it there.

Keep up the good work!

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by Egon

Also here is one of my runs from last season at zMax in my 5th Gen. I am shifting to second gear even before I clear the timing lights and leave it there the entire run. As I start the back to back "S" sweepers at 0:14 I am part throttle the entire time and rolling in and out from 0:26 to 0:31 where I had to tap the brakes to get around that sharp turn. You can also see at about 0:39 I am rolling into the throttle just a bit too fast and I had to lift just a fraction of a second to keep the rear end from kicking out. Don't watch the slalom at the end though as I am late on just about every cone. Also Hankook tires are LOUD.

I think I know who will be my first choice for an experienced driver ride along if I make it to that April event at Zmax haha I think that will be a win-win for both of us!

[Egon]

Originally Posted by tx6g1le

My replies in Red.

I tried them all in the morning runs. I set my best time on Dry which is why I used it in the afternoon runs. I was tired of trying to zero in on the course AND the PTM setting. You're probably right because it did bog down a few times when I left it in 2nd.

My recommendation on the TC/PTM settings would be to either leave them all on or all off with bias towards off. (see comments to mjk3888 below) When they are on the car will pull the throttle back or use the brakes on specific wheels to help keep the car straight, or at least keep it from spinning out. That could be contributing to the "bog" you were feeling, but I couldn't say for sure since I would have to be in the car to be certain.

First, I just want to say thank you! The fact you went through with a fine-toothed comb and captured screen shots! Man, I am grateful! Very nice run by the way and thank you for posting it

It's my pleasure, glad you found it helpful. The PDR makes it so damn easy to see exactly what is going on and it is a great learning/teaching tool. Well worth the extra cost in my opinion.

Shifting: I attempted to leave it in 2nd in the first and second runs on video. I had some trouble with the car bogging at low speeds (see my first run at 2:13), which is why I decided to try and keep the RPMs above 3k on the last couple runs.

Ok I went back and rewatched that section and you are correct that the car was pretty low in the RPM range and out of the power for a little bit going around that corner. Sometimes you will have elements on autocross courses where you have to go slow to get around them and it may be necessary to downshift. However you have to judge if the extra time you take to shift, and being off the throttle or brakes is worth it. I think in this case the half second of time where it was out of the power band balanced against the time it would have taken to shift are a wash so I would err towards not shifting and just let it bog for that half second. That being said that was a slow section of the course and it was probably set up that way intentionally so that no one was coming in too hot into the finish area.

Without having driven that section I still think it might have been possible to carry a little bit more speed through it and avoid the bog at the end. However to accomplish that it required you to be positioned correctly 2 elements prior. Here is how I would have tried it. In the 1st screen capture below you can see at 2:07 you are just passing the final pointer cone through that "S" section, I will call it element 1 visible in the inset video. Your car is currently pointed between elements 2 and 3 further down the course. At that point ideally you would want to already have your car pointed almost directly at element 2 and still turning just as you pass element 1 until you are headed for cone "X" and then immediately start your turn back towards element 3 as you clip the cone at element 2. What this does is allows you to perform a more gentle turn and avoids the need to really crank the wheel hard to get around element 3. The second 2nd and 3rd screen caps show before element 3 and after element 3 and you can see almost no turn before the cone and a WHOLE LOT after. This delays your ability to get back on the throttle earlier and you are taking the element slower than necessary so the car is out of its power band. It's difficult to explain it this way, and why it would be very valuable for you to have video from a more experienced driver in your car doing the same thing for you to compare to.

100% believe you're right and referring back to my previous shifting comment - had I left it in a better PTM mode I may not have had the "bogging" I described under 3k RPM. Great insight!

I had to go read up on what all of the PTM modes were and from my reading only, I would suggest sport 1 or sport 2 and stick to that one setting every time you are autocrossing. (This advice is for Autocross only HPDE track events with novice drivers want all of the help they can get) Anyone with more firsthand knowledge of the PTM settings please correct me if I am wrong.

Question: I'm not sure if you could tell but I ran out of gearing on that stretch in 1st. Should I hold a high RPM in 1st for the length of the "gap" or would you shift into 2nd and continue to accelerate until the breaking zone?

Yah it looked like you did hit the redline there. I would have shifted into 2nd @ 11:02 just as you made the right hander after exiting the yellow/green cone starting line and left it there the entire time. In your 1LE you should never have that problem in 2nd gear on a correctly designed autocross course. If you are hitting the redline in 2nd you are going almost 80mph and the course designer may want to revisit their course layout. Most of the guys I autocross with that have cars without as long gears will just bounce off the rev limiter instead of upshifting if its for less than 2 seconds since they will just have to downshift again. If it's going to redline for more than 2 seconds they upshift.

This could not be more true and thank you for shedding light on it. Watching the PDR tell me I was only half on the breaks when I was convinced that I was buried in them was eye opening!

I do not think most people really understand how quickly a car, any car not just performance vehicles, can stop at max effort. This will take you time to learn as you get more seat time and confidence in the car. Don't worry though, this is exactly how everyone that is new to autocross starts out, it is how I was initially. I have only ever had 1 novice that I rode with that wasnt like this at the start, but he had LOTS of other issues.

You see me lose it at 12:08 and I think I was nervous on how much I was going to get away with. I need to push the car much harder to find out what it's capable of.

You caught it and recovered nicely. It was another situation where you had heavy steering input and too much throttle at the same time. Like I said ease in and ease out of the throttle. As you get more experience you will ease in and ease out faster and faster till most normal drivers will feel like you are just flooring it but it's still controlled. I will post another one of my autocross videos in the next post down and you can see at 0:53 and am getting on it too fast while still completing a turn and the back end starts to kick out. Because I was rolling into the throttle in a controlled manner I was able to incrementally back off and keep it from getting out of hand though.

Great advice and thanks again. Since the next opportunity will be an SCCA event with more drivers, I'll ask around for an experienced ride along.

See if other drivers will let you ride shotgun with them so you can get a feel for how they drive. Then get someone to ride with you and consider letting them drive your car while you ride as a passenger. I know that might not be easy to do especially since they will be driving it hard and you won't want them to break it but you will learn a LOT from letting an experienced diver drive your car.

TL;DR I need to actually use my breaks, stop shifting, and utilize a lower "nanny" mode on the PTM.

Free yourself from the nannies! I think it's good to do 1 or 2 events with nannies especially if you have some bad habits, but leaving them on too long will slow down your learning. Take them off as soon as you can.

Originally Posted by mjk3888

Just a note. Of the 3 highest modes on PTM (Sport 1, Sport 2, and Race) only Sport 1 has active handling enabled. This is where its helping you avoid overrotating the car. I might even try running PTM in Sport 2 to get a feel for the actual rotation and behavior of the car without any nanny interference. You still get the benefit of traction control and eLSD but its not trying to fight a slide it will let the car drift if pushed hard enough.

I personally will be using autocross as a safe environment to test the limits of the car. If I lose it at an autocross I may get a cone or two, but if I lose it at a track I put it in a sand trap or even hit a wall. So I might even run with everything off or PTM in race moded and get a feel for the car then start to dial the PTM in.

Again take this all with a grain of salt since I'm not an auto cross expert.

I think the multitude of traction control settings could cause problems with learning the car and improving general driver skill if people are constantly switching between them. Every time you change a setting it's like getting into a different car that you have to learn all over again. I would advise to choose one and stick with it consistently while learning the car, and the least invasive one the better. My personal suggestion, and keep in mind I do not have a 6th Gen 1LE, would be to either leave it all on or all off, with my bias being towards all off. In the case of the 1LE, Sport 1 or Sport 2 sounds best. As you said autocross is a relatively safe environment to learn the car, so why not go all out. You will learn that "oh that makes the car spin out, lets not do that again" rather quickly. (ask me how I know)

I see that you're in Upstate SC, our Central Carolinas Region SCCA just added a new venue at the Donaldson Airport in Greenville SC to our 2017 autocross season. Here are the dates we will be running at Donaldson.

March 26th
May 7th
May 27th

We will also be having a novice school there on March 25th so it would be a fantastic way to get some great instruction on Saturday and then a full event on Sunday without you hopefully having to drive too far.

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Some excellent advice in here! I only want to add that when you're driving, you shouldn't ever be waiting for the next thing to do [except a straightaway on a track]. If you're not turning, braking, or on the throttle, then you're wasting time. Braking should be immediately after throttle with no discernible lag, other than the time it takes to move your foot. All the better if you learn to left-foot brake. In short, your car should always be at the peak of its friction circle, whether its lateral, accel, or decel. Smooth transitions between each is what makes you quick.

I'll second the motion about being simpler with gearing. If you're not sure, be in the higher gear and leave it there.

Keep up the good work!

This is great advice, especially the part about not waiting.

[Egon]

Here is that other autocross video of mine I mentioned above. FF to 0:50 to watch the throttle oversteer at 0:53. Because I was rolling into the throttle in a controlled manner I was able to catch it before it got away from me. It has gotten away from me in the past but those videos have mysteriously disappeared.