[Sven59]

Originally Posted by BeckyD@RodgersChevrolet

I do not sell them..

BUT...
This is...
My Delivery Equipment.....
Attachment 844093

Attachment 844094

Very nice! Do you have a recommendation as far as brand and size?

[A7X]

Originally Posted by BeckyD@RodgersChevrolet

I do not sell them..

BUT...
This is...
My Delivery Equipment.....
Attachment 844093

Attachment 844094

Impressive Rig!!

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by flatrockguy

It's interesting that the CTS-V with the old 8spd mactched to the same LT4 in the ZL1 only has a $1000 gas guzzler tax

A lot of that is surely due to no AFM on the ZL1, the more performance oriented shift logic, and the fuel mileage testers probably driving the car more like most of us will.

Originally Posted by cleoent

kind of sad that with 10 speeds they couldn't get the fuel mileage to be decent. What do they need gears 9-10 for? wtf.

They could make it better, but that's not this cars' purpose.

Originally Posted by cleoent

I can sense your sarcasm, BUT -

GM wasted a bagillion dollars in R&D if they weren't after fuel economy. A 7spd dual clutch tranny would be just as much performance.

I'm sure there are a good chunk of people at GM disappointed.

Proof that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

If the gas economy sucks, then there's very little point to having so many gears. Going back to your point, a car with 650hp/tq doesn't need 10 spds to be fast.

You are totally missing the point of this car. Sure it can be fast without 10 speeds, but it can be even faster with them, especially on a road course where corner exit speeds can vary greatly.

As for the fuel economy, I feel everyone is jumping to too many conclusions. I feel the auto will actually be able to get better mpg than the manual on the highway if someone wants it to. Doing the math, the manual has a 2.0142 final drive ratio in 6th and the auto has a 1.824 in 10th. Lower RPM at identical speeds equals less fuel being burned. Now let's say we need to downshift to pull a hill at the same speed. Drop a gear in the manual and you have a 3.0586. The auto can drop 3 gears all the way down into drive and still have a more fuel efficient ratio of 2.85. 8th gives a 2.4225 and 9th a 1.9665 if that many gears aren't necessary to maintain speed. So the auto can possibly get just as good gas mileage in 9th as the manual in 6th.

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

My Silverado has AFM but the only time it's on 4 cylinders is when it's on dead flat road or going down hill. I'm dubious about any true fuel savings.

Our Escalade doesn't show when it's in 4 cylinder mode and we can't tell it either, so I'm not sure how often it runs that way, but every little bit adds up.

Originally Posted by Artos

I don't care about the gas mileage & not why I'm getting this car...I really don't even care about GG Tax, even though it's double taxation. It's not a deal killer, just insulting.


I just find it hard to believe it is not equal or better than the M6...I think someone had a heavy foot on the A10 during this whole official gas mileage testing. I'm betting real world it will be the same or just a tad better than the M6.

I think you hit it square on the head with the fuel mileage testing and real world results. I mean, just think about it. If you were handed the keys to some cool new tech like this ZL1 with an auto 10 speed, how would you be driving it? You would be constantly playing with the paddle shifters and leaving it in full auto, mashing the gas, and being amazed at how it drops 4, 5, 6, maybe 7 gears and slams you into the seat, then bangs off lightning quick upshifts that hold you there! Even if you drove the manual the same way, the auto keeps the engine in a higher RPM than the manual, which burns more fuel. So the manual will get better gas mileage than the auto if both cars are driven fast.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I think some of you are missing the mark a bit....

8, 9, 10 are overdrive gears, true...

But 1-7 are not. And the "city cycle" accounts for 55% of the EPA test...this is the reason the C7 Z06 automatic failed to escape the GG tax, even though it has a higher hwy fuel economy number than the manual version.

Furthermore, the car does *NOT* have Active Fuel Management...which the Z06 Auto does. And yet...the auto ZL1 didn't perform as poorly (vs manual) than the Z06 automatic did.

If you also recall...in this car...the A10 has a customized calibration for the ZL1. Performance Algorithm shifting...aggressive gear holds...This CAR was not designed to optimize fuel economy.

In the trucks? Don't doubt it'll have radically different tuning.

You can hardly call this a waste of money because it got a taxed by the EPA for fuel economy.

More solid facts.

Thinking of how the gear ratios play into city driving, shows how the auto could really use up a lot of extra fuel if it isn't programmed to automatically pull out in second gear or if the driver gives it enough gas to use first instead. The manual has a final drive ratio of 8.5417 in 1st gear. The auto has 13.395. Now if the auto pulls out in second, things are a lot closer, as it has an 8.5215 ratio. Then you go to second in the manual, which may be the highest gear you'll likely use in true city driving and you have a 6.0053. If the auto goes to 3rd, it is running in a slightly less efficient gear of 6.1275. Now let's say you get enough space to go into 3rd in the manual, you'll be cruising with a 4.5133 gear, while the auto going into 4th would be at a much less efficient 5.13. The auto would have to shift into 5th to be more efficient with a 4.332. If the auto pulls out in 2nd and skips 4th, then the ratios between the 2 trannies are very similar in city driving, but a little too heavy with the right foot and it's going to use some fuel sucking gears that the manual doesn't have. It's pretty easy to see how the auto could have just as good, if not better fuel economy in city, highway, and combined, or way worse in the city, which leads to a lower combined average. All dependent on how it's driven or programmed.

Maybe a chart showing the final drive ratio in each gear for both trannies would prove useful for some, as it would make for much easier side by side comparisons. It's too late for me to do that tonight, so if no one beats me to it, maybe I can find some time to do that tomorrow.

[BOWTIEBOB]

My Gen5 ZL1 had a GG tax of $2600 on the sticker. Because I purchased under GM Employee plan I paid $2717. No one has ever been able to explain why the cost was more.

[BOWTIEBOB]

I just checked on gmpricing.com employee site. The sticker will reflect $2100 as of a January 5th revision in pricing. Not a price increase because they disclaimed when the published pricing was released that $1700 was an estimate but actual GG Tax was TBD (to be determined.) They really must have "THOROUGHLY" bench tested this LT4 and then adjusted the figures to reflect the hefty amount of the LT4/A10 combination in the heavier '17 Camaro. When bought my '15 ZO6 the GG Tax for A8 (M5U) was $1300. Another great example of taking the "pipe" in the name of government intrusion for the sake of a "greener." planet. Does anyone really believe that this tax will offset environmental damage based on low numbers of vehicles sold as compared entire fleet? One diesel truck on the road will pollute and suck more fuel than hundreds of cars. If Chevy did not start producing 4 cyl. Camaros, they would probably not be able to build the ZL1 at all. If you look at the upcoming CAFE standards for fuel targets the GG Tax is even going to get worse.(52 mpg by 2026.) I thought the A10 GG Tax would have been comparable to the M6 because of the two additional overdrive gears in the A10 commensurate mileage.

[BOWTIEBOB]

Originally Posted by BeckyD@RodgersChevrolet

I have a Z06...
..It's Wondeful..!


Weight ... = ... Efficiency..


.......

......ZL1 + A10


....Is A......
..... Masterpiece of Efficiency!

Can't wait for mine...


Becky

Becky,I too have a C7 ZO6 and a GEN5 ZL1, also GEN6 ZL1/A10 (Order# VBBFN0) in system, status unknown. I don't recall offhand if there was a GG Tax on my 427 C6 Convertible. Because of this outrageous tax, imposed by the EPA, supposedly to benefit a better environment, it does nothing to support any environmental programs, is punitive nature and therefore characterized by me as a huge waste of money. When have you known any government agency to operate more efficiently that private enterprise? I don't want my comments to devolve into a political discussion,but do you recall the "Luxury Tax" on vehicles, boats etc., back in the 80's, imposed on units with a MSRP or price beyond a certain level? How about "carbon credits" purchased to offset higher consumption of fuel in vehicles, planes and boats? On the contrary, now the government props up sales of electric or hybrid vehicles with large subsidies or rebates to the consumer. The technology, reliability and performance are not at a level where the proper infrastructure can be built to support widespread within the market. Waste of money? This is just a simple plan to "tax it when you earn it, tax it when you save it, tax it when you invest it and tax it when you spend it. I do know that in 2015, when the LT4 was initially tested, the GG Tax was determined on the A8(M5U) C7 ZO6, supposedly it had an equal or better than combined mileage figure than the M7. Tests are conducted in the default driving mode as opposed to ECO or lower gas consumption modes. Initial bench tests results were subsequently adjusted by the EPA according to some proprietary formula for "real world" driving. I wonder if the formula included any real world track drag racing or "pro-street" driving. When the C7 ZO6/A8 was EPA certified GM/Chevy protested action loudly to no avail. There was some informative discussion of this subject on the Corvette Forum which thoroughly set forth the nature of EPA/CAFE standards and how the EPA manipulates the numbers to reflect whatever they want. Chevy knows better than to fight the government. If Chevy fought or resisted too strongly, it might result in a series of multi-million dollar fines for some product recall or defect the government deems was a serious breach of regulations. I don't know you personally Becky. It is evident you are a wonderful person and a great ambassador for this forum, your dealership and Chevrolet. I am not what you would call "wealthy." I retired relatively young from a municipal police department after 32 plus years of service. I now have an opportunity to finally "live the dream" after raising and educating four wonderful children. I could say many things about the various taxes I have paid, and currently pay on my home, income and consumption of goods; so does everyone else.The governments already get higher sales tax amounts because the higher sales price of these limited production performance cars. Many people do not realize that the number of GG Tax vehicles produced must be limited because if too many were sold it would negatively affect Chevrolet's over all fleet CAFE MPG target for the model year. You will have no problem buying a 4 cyl. turbo because they offset to some degree the ZL1's. Some people pay greater registration fees based on the increased value of the vehicle. I don't know if you have looked at the fact that the customer, who I believe provides the income stream to the dealer, is paying sales tax on the GG Tax. Maybe this is what some would call a travesty and not just a waste of money. As any tax does, it has a negative effect on sales, therefore the manufacturer, dealership and customer are adversely impacted. If the customer did not have the GG Tax to contend with, they would have more disposable cash providing additional profit opportunity to the dealer. With more available money, perhaps a service contract or aftermarket goods and services could be purchased, which would actually benefit for the consumer as well as providing more sales tax for the government. I could go on. This is food for thought. Keep up the valuable unpaid, untaxed work you do that benefits all of us on this forum. I apologize for the rant.

[17CamaroZL1]

My sleepy self forgot an important part of my city driving gearing last night. The M6 has skip shift that probably needs to be factored in. I'll try to get a chart up when I have a little more time.

[IneedAZ]

Does the price on the GM Supplier discount site include this tax? I printed the estimate but i don't see any mention of the GG tax or transportation fee. I know it doesn't include sales tax.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

...and the fuel mileage testers probably driving the car more like most of us will.

I think you hit it square on the head with the fuel mileage testing and real world results. I mean, just think about it. If you were handed the keys to some cool new tech like this ZL1 with an auto 10 speed, how would you be driving it?

The EPA test is extremely structured and data-driven...certain portions of the test call for % throttle inputs, and specific time periods. One of the only variables is the manufacturer-supplied coefficient of drag to correct the lab results into "real world" numbers.

So it's nearly impossible for the tax and FE rating to be the result of an excited driver.

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

More solid facts.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

As for the fuel economy, I feel everyone is jumping to too many conclusions. I feel the auto will actually be able to get better mpg than the manual on the highway if someone wants it to. Doing the math, the manual has a 2.0142 final drive ratio in 6th and the auto has a 1.824 in 10th. Lower RPM at identical speeds equals less fuel being burned.

Thinking of how the gear ratios play into city driving, shows how the auto could really use up a lot of extra fuel if it isn't programmed to automatically pull out in second gear or if the driver gives it enough gas to use first instead. The manual has a final drive ratio of 8.5417 in 1st gear. The auto has 13.395. Now if the auto pulls out in second, things are a lot closer, as it has an 8.5215 ratio. Then you go to second in the manual, which may be the highest gear you'll likely use in true city driving and you have a 6.0053. If the auto goes to 3rd, it is running in a slightly less efficient gear of 6.1275. Now let's say you get enough space to go into 3rd in the manual, you'll be cruising with a 4.5133 gear, while the auto going into 4th would be at a much less efficient 5.13. The auto would have to shift into 5th to be more efficient with a 4.332. If the auto pulls out in 2nd and skips 4th, then the ratios between the 2 trannies are very similar in city driving, but a little too heavy with the right foot and it's going to use some fuel sucking gears that the manual doesn't have. It's pretty easy to see how the auto could have just as good, if not better fuel economy in city, highway, and combined, or way worse in the city, which leads to a lower combined average. All dependent on how it's driven or programmed.

Maybe a chart showing the final drive ratio in each gear for both trannies would prove useful for some, as it would make for much easier side by side comparisons. It's too late for me to do that tonight, so if no one beats me to it, maybe I can find some time to do that tomorrow.

Like this? See below for another point on fuel economy comparisons...

Originally Posted by BOWTIEBOB

When bought my '15 ZO6 the GG Tax for A8 (M5U) was $1300. Another great example of taking the "pipe" in the name of government intrusion for the sake of a "greener." planet. Does anyone really believe that this tax will offset environmental damage based on low numbers of vehicles sold as compared entire fleet?

No...in fact, some studies have proposed that the GG tax (outdated theory from the 70s) has actually driven consumers towards SUVs...which are exempt from the tax...and therefore boosted the SUV and Truck trend in the United States.

For reference...Z06 fuel economy figures:

7-speed M: 15 city / 22 hwy.....18mpg average (EPA figure, no GG tax)
8-speed A: 13 city / 23 hwy.....16 mpg average (EPA figure, $1300 GG)

[HyperBlueX2]

Originally Posted by IneedAZ

Does the price on the GM Supplier discount site include this tax? I printed the estimate but i don't see any mention of the GG tax or transportation fee. I know it doesn't include sales tax.

The destination charge and GG tax are included..... but the GG tax is reduced by employee pricing.... which is not going to happen, I believe, because it is a tax......

[IneedAZ]

Originally Posted by Hyperblue16vert

The destination charge and GG tax are included..... but the GG tax is reduced by employee pricing.... which is not going to happen, I believe, because it is a tax......

Thanks...so im looking around 71k and change out the door

[Mr. Wyndham]

I asked the question, and confirmed that the $2100 GG tax is the accurate figure for the A10 ZL1.

Just wanted to share in case anyone still wondered if it was accurate.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Like this? See below for another point on fuel economy comparisons...

Attachment 844143

Yes. Thank you! I had planned on having the manual numbers beside it for comparsions, but that looks nice.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

No...in fact, some studies have proposed that the GG tax (outdated theory from the 70s) has actually driven consumers towards SUVs...which are exempt from the tax...and therefore boosted the SUV and Truck trend in the United States.

I've wondered that myself.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

For reference...Z06 fuel economy figures:

7-speed M: 15 city / 22 hwy.....18mpg average (EPA figure, no GG tax)
8-speed A: 13 city / 23 hwy.....16 mpg average (EPA figure, $1300 GG)

That's kinda what I expect to see on the ZL1 tranny comparison. Slightly better highway mpg with slightly lower city and average.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Just exchanged an email with Camaro Team....

I wanted to confirm the $2100.00 for anyone who still wondered if it was accurate.

Good deal! I would love to see the EPA rating as well.

[USP45]

So my question would be why the 10sp had worse mileage on the epa test loop? Pumping losses?

Most auto transmissions today lock up the tq converter very quickly... My 2011 F350 with 6.7 diesel locks up the converter in 2nd and it stays that way from there to 6th including the gear changes. I have a H&S Minimaxx tuner on it which shows gear and lockup so I can tell at which point the tq converter locks and if it stays there.

I guess my point is that the trans is essentially operating in a direct drive manner like a manual. I guess it would have to be due to the transmission tuning and pumping loss?