[cwebster]

Originally Posted by Ecchi667

Turn One are on from January, SCCA start in March. The next one I'll be at will most likely be the SCCA Night Tracks. April 20th. If they put a Night Track on sooner I'll shoot for that, too. In the mean time, I'm going to give autocross a go in NC come February.

http://www.carolinamotorsportspark.com/calendar.html

Oh nice! Depending on weather and break-in period of my ZL1, I may try to shoot for one of the January "Turn One Track Days". I don't have an SCCA license but I can apply for one with my Bondurant Racing School certificate. For the first few trips though, I'll just want to learn the track and get used to my new ZL1. Then I may move up to more competitive events. I still have to get my truck converted and buy that car hauler too.

--Cal

[Boilermaker128]

In the near future it will soon be 100% fully autonomous cars and the winning factor will be which person can climb around inside the cabin from left to right to shift weight on turns better.

[Zae757]

I honestly purchased my first 6speed MT in 2012 which was a 370Z and never looked back since. There are times that I wish I had an automatic, oh wait I do, a Honda civic (a non sports car). I just love the ability to change the gear and manipulate the vehicle to an unpredictable gear that will have the car screaming at times. Then again, I'm only 31 and I'm sure there will come a time in which I have to hang up the MT. Until that time, I am going to ride it and shift it until the wheels fall off.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Here is my take (which will be a little unique):

I'm 50 and have driven a lot of both types of transmissions. Most folks who like manuals claim that they feel more connected or engaged to the car. But really, engaging a clutch DISENGAGES your drive train from the engine. That's kind of the opposite. To me, it feels less engaging once the clutch is depressed. I believe what they are trying to state (and I will state more accurately), is you have more control over which gear and when you change compared to an automatic in full auto mode. There are many times in an automatic that is is shifting when you don't want, or not shifting when you do. This makes it feel like the car won't do what you want it to do. This is the disengagement of an auto that they are referring to, and I agree with. So, as autos get better at selecting the appropriate gear, the less they feel "disengaging". I LOVE how the new autos hold a gear in a turn, or downshift to engine brake when going down a hill. Awesome!

Also, doing something manually that can be done automatically can give more of a sense of satisfaction. If you build a car, it will be more satisfying than just buying the very same car. If you climb a mountain, the view will seem more beautiful than if you drove up it. It's just a feeling. But to some, it matters. But think of this:

In the old (really old) days, there was a lever on the steering column that adjusted your timing. You had to advance/retard your timing manually to get the best power out of your car while driving. Are folks who prefer manuals claiming that folks who have electronic ignition or centrifugal advance and/or vacuum advance distributors are not real men? No. They let the distributor or electronic ignition do it's thing.

The real name for a car is AUTOmobile for a reason. It does everything automatically for you, except pilot the vehicle. (If it drives itself, it has a different name: Autonomous Vehicle).

I do get more of a sense of satisfaction shifting manually. I also get more of a sense of satisfaction putting an auto into manual mode and using the paddle shifters. But if full auto is faster, I will put it in full auto. Why? This:

I took my 1SS A8 to a road course this past fall, and it was one of the best times I have ever had in my life (and I am an avid outdoor adventurer who has traveled the world skiing, sailing, windsurfing, scuba diving, etc..). The first two sessions I had the car in full auto, the second two I shifted manually with the paddle shifters. In auto mode, the programming was really good, but not perfect. I didn't like how the car decides when to be in "performance shift mode" (I would like the ability to set it to that mode). I didn't have trouble getting it to activate, but when I got stuck behind a slower car, it went back to normal mode. In manual mode (paddle shifters), I was really good, but not perfect. I feel I was faster in manual mode, because I could hold a gear when waiting for the signal to pass. Also, I was worried that 8 gears would be too many to be sorting through as I went through the track, but I was only using 2-4, so managing three gears was easy as can be.

Now, I didn't get a chance to drive a manual to compare, but I know myself, and it would in now way be any more fun than what I experienced. Why? Because all the excitement came from the high speeds, trying to hit the perfect line, the sounds, the air buffeting my helmet at 130+ MPH, the power of the car when accelerating, the turn-in, the balance of the car when right at the limit, the HUGE grip, feathering the throttle so the back end doesn't swing around, etc. Using a clutch and gear shifter would have in no way made any of that any more enjoyable over using the paddle shifters to select the gears.

In fact, I am sure I would feel a little less engaged since the auto hits the next gear without the lag of a manual. Not enough to change the overall rating of my experience, but hearing the sound of a 2x4 snapping in half on upshifts in the straights was more fun than disengaging the engine from the rest of the drive train just to get the damn car into another gear. I want to go faster, not slower. And not because I need to win or be the fastest, or beat anyone else, but because faster is more fun. Slower is less fun. Doubt that? Then go to a road course and drive around it as fast as you can, then slow as you can (resonably without hindering others), and see which one you like more (no matter what trans you have). Fast=fun. Slow=boring as hell.

DISCLAIMER: This is all my own personal opinion, and is not meant to convince anyone one way or the other. You like manuals? Then I want you to buy the manual. Why? Because I want everyone to have the car THEY like, not the one I like.

Nice write up! I chose the auto for my ZL1 for many of the reasons you mentioned. I could make an argument for both transmissions, as I've enjoyed both. I really think this A10 is going to be something special! I would actually like to see a manufacturer reinvent the manual transmission, for a car anyway, and do a sequential gearbox like we have on sportbikes. That would make the gap between it and an auto nearly nonexistent, especially with a built in quick shifter that cuts ignition as soon as the shifter is pulled to the next gear. Then add either a slipper clutch or a rev match system to make quick downshifts that doesn't upset the car going into a corner and a really good launch control system for drag racers. Now that would be a whole new and exciting driving experience in my opinion!

[laynlo15]

It will kick the M6s ass in a drag race. Just look at the 1/4 mile fast list on Camaro6 and you'll see why. The A10 will just be a killer setup

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by hotlap

It would be interesting to know how many gen5 M6 ZL1 owners are going automatic in gen6.

The futility of a manual is directly proportional to the power of the car. That is unless its a pure road course animal in which case you should really be over in the Z/28 or 1LE area.

This thread was started by a wise older member that I have some years on. I still track my M6 ZL1 a few times a year but primarily it is a weekend fun car. I have driven it to several Camaro Fun Fests and a few in state trips.

I'm going to wait before I make a final decision. I really like that the manual has rev-match considering that heel/toe is not a technique that I was able to manage consistently. But being closer to 70 than 60 I have to be realistic too. How much longer do I really want to keep manually shifting my cars? But, I'm also still waiting to see how well the A10 does in real life, in the hands of the rest of you with both street and track miles. The A8 in the Corvette was very highly touted by both GM and journalists. In reality it is prone to overheating. I know this because my 2015 Z51 Vette A8 overheated in it's first track adventure along with the other three C7 automatics that were there that day.

I did watch the Nurburgring video, a few times, but I'm going to wait to see what you guys and gals have to say about the A10 in real world driving before a decision is made.

[MoreSpeed]

Originally Posted by hjdca

My cars are all manuals... I won't buy an auto sports car... Watching that A10 shift on the nurburgring is unreal... It keeps the car at peak power the whole time.... Auto cars will continue to get faster and faster, however, manual users should not worry, this will continue and eventually, maybe manual users will have their own category or a comment after a timed event that says "manual".... Manual users are very talented drivers, and maybe soon they will be identified at the tracks.

I think you really put your finger on the issue.
There should be multiple classes in many of these competitive events based on technology that really sways the outcome. I would really rather have the manual, but SCCA for example, does not break out PDK's and Automatics from Manuals in their classes. If the past is any quide, then the ZL1 with an A10 will be classed the same as a ZL1 with a 6 speed manual in the 2017 rule book. This seems strange given that a few millimeter width change from stock tires (305's to 315's for example) moves you from stock, but probably has some, but less time impact.

If there were some class difference or penalty for advanced tech, we could drive what we want to drive and let shifting skill shine. As it is now, however, if the grid has mostly automatics in your class, that disadvantage to you with a manual will probably be felt. The difference from first in class to 4 or 5th can be a pain.

[Ecchi667]

Originally Posted by cwebster

Oh nice! Depending on weather and break-in period of my ZL1, I may try to shoot for one of the January "Turn One Track Days". I don't have an SCCA license but I can apply for one with my Bondurant Racing School certificate. For the first few trips though, I'll just want to learn the track and get used to my new ZL1. Then I may move up to more competitive events. I still have to get my truck converted and buy that car hauler too.

--Cal

Sounds good! I don't have the funds to put in for January else I'd try to arrange a joint Camaro track meet-up with you! SCCA Night Track doesn't need anything other than your standard drivers license. It even has a free 20 minute session for people just wanting to check it out, although you are limited to following a pace car for that so you're not going to "officially" exceed 55mph. Nice to get a sighting of the course, though! I'd rather an open pit lane deal for a track visit, but I'm not sure I've seen any at this track. It's a nice little track, though. The go-karts are fun, too!

I hope all goes great with the ZL1! Enjoy!

[BMWM.D.]

Originally Posted by detltu

This thread took a strange turn.
Auto vs Manual- I love manual transmissions. my 99ss was a 6 speed. My 91 Z28s were a 5 and 6 speed. My ZL1 is a 6 speed manual. When I get a new one it will be a A10.
The old argument was that the manual was that the manual was lighter, faster, and got better gas mileage. The auto was more consistent at the drag strip. Then the autos were faster on the strip, then they got better gas mileage. Now they are faster in every way and get better gas mileage. My wife drives a stick and drives my Zl1 on occasion so that is not an issue. I enjoy driving the manual but at this point the A10 is the much better transmission. Luckily I will still have some older cars with manuals for when I want to row the gears. Everyone has their own reasons for choosing one over the other, but there are a lot of reasons to buy the automatic now besides not being able to drive stick.

On the supercharger/ no lift shift issue:
The whole point of no lift shift is to build boost. Not sure what the discussion of the rev limiter was trying to prove, but it seems like some were trying to say that cutting off fuel to limit revs would not reduce the rpms on the blower as well. That is absolutely incorrect. There is a reason the blower is driven by the belt. The forces required to compress that air will over come the momentum in a hurry. If you add boost and/or mess with the rev limit, you can certainly risk damaging your engine. It won't be because the blower revs continue to climb when fuel is shutoff/reduced to the engine.

Agreed on all points.

As for the NLS and bent valves: It was likely a combination of 500 extra rpm and more boost with (I'm assuming) the stock valve springs. That sounds like a recipe for valve float. There's also the fact that it was tuned. There are a bunch of rev limiter settings on these Gen 4 engines. It's possible the tuner changed the control method or switchover delay settings. So that's definitely a possibility. I've spent a lot of time messing with these on my own cars. They'll use a combo of fuel, spark, and throttle to prevent an over-rev -- depending on the situation and Factory calibration.

[2NASSTY]

Originally Posted by BMWM.D.

Agreed on all points.

As for the NLS and bent valves: It was likely a combination of 500 extra rpm and more boost with (I'm assuming) the stock valve springs. That sounds like a recipe for valve float. There's also the fact that it was tuned. There are a bunch of rev limiter settings on these Gen 4 engines. It's possible the tuner changed the control method or switchover delay settings. So that's definitely a possibility. I've spent a lot of time messing with these on my own cars. They'll use a combo of fuel, spark, and throttle to prevent an over-rev -- depending on the situation and Factory calibration.

Seems like you have this one all figured out. Missed 3-4 NLS at the track indeed caused the following; valve float, valve to piston slap, 4 bent pushrods, mis fire code. Good news is the motor survived, top end build fortified with cam. No more NLS for this ZL1. If Bone stock yes. Take your chances if your modded.

On the manual vs auto debate. Looking forward to the A10, but would really like to see some 6M track times in this new ZL1. Very surprised to see no one take their 6M Car to the drag strip yet. Perhaps a different type of owner for this Ride