[hjdca]

Originally Posted by MoreSpeed

I kind of wish all of this technology was not allowed in racing as well. That soft squishy lump in the drivers seat is absolutely the limiting factor today. The cars are amazing now. It would be nice to get back to some of the old day series racing where everyone had the exact same low tech vehicles.

Also, with a manual, a well executed heal toe downshift is a thing of beauty. Oh wait, even the Manual 6 will do that for you with rev matching. Oh the manual has stability control as well, traction control, variable magnetic ride suspension, high tech LSD, etc... It looks like we would all have to be racing 1969 series cars to get away from all of the go fast, be safe technology that even the basic Camaros' have today. All these technologies also take away driver involvement. Ever drive an old 1970 with hardly any brakes and all that body roll fast? That is involvement.

As to no skill needed to drive a modern A10... "just push the gas pedal", that is a bit misguided and I am sure said to spur conversation. Pretty much every week, there is someone who stuffs their high tech car into the Armco. Driving at 9/10th or 10/10th's is anything but easy. Throw different drivers in the mix, different closing speeds, variations in track grip, the radiator fluid that the bozo in front of you just squirted all over the track with his or her non maintained car... off camber turns, etc,, etc.. It is a lot more involved than initially meets the eye for either a manual or Auto. Based on the above initial statement, it should be easy to be an Astronaut. All you have to do is sit in a chair.

My cars are all manuals... I won't buy an auto sports car... Watching that A10 shift on the nurburgring is unreal... It keeps the car at peak power the whole time.... Auto cars will continue to get faster and faster, however, manual users should not worry, this will continue and eventually, maybe manual users will have their own category or a comment after a timed event that says "manual".... Manual users are very talented drivers, and maybe soon they will be identified at the tracks.

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by hjdca

My cars are all manuals... I won't buy an auto sports car... Watching that A10 shift on the nurburgring is unreal... It keeps the car at peak power the whole time.... Auto cars will continue to get faster and faster, however, manual users should not worry, this will continue and eventually, maybe manual users will have their own category or a comment after a timed event that says "manual".... Manual users are very talented drivers, and maybe soon they will be identified at the tracks.

You know what happened to the other manual?

[Zack46]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

If you think racing an automatic doesn't require skill..

Then you've never raced.

[CAM-FIFTY]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

If you think racing an automatic doesn't require skill..

Then you've never raced.

The biggest skill is the timely optimum gear selection to get peak power all the time, human vs computer....other skills are probably common for auto and manual.

[bobby35ny]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

If you think racing an automatic doesn't require skill..

Then you've never raced.

Lets be honest here, of course you need skills to race, You just need less skill with a Auto.

I remember many MOONS ago, On the strip, SuperGas cars were all Manuals, then guys started to run poweglides. We begged to separate the auto/manual class and it never happened, fun was gone, guys left the sport or went auto.

My boy has a HC 6spd and his friend has the auto, I driven both cars many many many times. YUP the auto is faster but ZERO fun factor.

-Bobby

[Richard0nee]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

Lets be honest here, of course you need skills to race, You just need less skill with a Auto.

I remember many MOONS ago, On the strip, SuperGas cars were all Manuals, then guys started to run poweglides. We begged to separate the auto/manual class and it never happened, fun was gone, guys left the sport or went auto.

My boy has a HC 6spd and his friend has the auto, I driven both cars many many many times. YUP the auto is faster but ZERO fun factor.

-Bobby

Pretty much nailed it with the fun factor. I drove both as well.

Chevy would have to offer me 40% off for me to buy an auto.. Then again, I don't drag race anymore, have a beater for DD and traffic so the M6 is a perfect weekend car.

BUT.. if I were to be at the drag strips daily, racing for big money then I would have gotten an auto for easier launches.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Here is my take (which will be a little unique):

I'm 50 and have driven a lot of both types of transmissions. Most folks who like manuals claim that they feel more connected or engaged to the car. But really, engaging a clutch DISENGAGES your drive train from the engine. That's kind of the opposite. To me, it feels less engaging once the clutch is depressed. I believe what they are trying to state (and I will state more accurately), is you have more control over which gear and when you change compared to an automatic in full auto mode. There are many times in an automatic that is is shifting when you don't want, or not shifting when you do. This makes it feel like the car won't do what you want it to do. This is the disengagement of an auto that they are referring to, and I agree with. So, as autos get better at selecting the appropriate gear, the less they feel "disengaging". I LOVE how the new autos hold a gear in a turn, or downshift to engine brake when going down a hill. Awesome!

Also, doing something manually that can be done automatically can give more of a sense of satisfaction. If you build a car, it will be more satisfying than just buying the very same car. If you climb a mountain, the view will seem more beautiful than if you drove up it. It's just a feeling. But to some, it matters. But think of this:

In the old (really old) days, there was a lever on the steering column that adjusted your timing. You had to advance/retard your timing manually to get the best power out of your car while driving. Are folks who prefer manuals claiming that folks who have electronic ignition or centrifugal advance and/or vacuum advance distributors are not real men? No. They let the distributor or electronic ignition do it's thing.

The real name for a car is AUTOmobile for a reason. It does everything automatically for you, except pilot the vehicle. (If it drives itself, it has a different name: Autonomous Vehicle).

I do get more of a sense of satisfaction shifting manually. I also get more of a sense of satisfaction putting an auto into manual mode and using the paddle shifters. But if full auto is faster, I will put it in full auto. Why? This:

I took my 1SS A8 to a road course this past fall, and it was one of the best times I have ever had in my life (and I am an avid outdoor adventurer who has traveled the world skiing, sailing, windsurfing, scuba diving, etc..). The first two sessions I had the car in full auto, the second two I shifted manually with the paddle shifters. In auto mode, the programming was really good, but not perfect. I didn't like how the car decides when to be in "performance shift mode" (I would like the ability to set it to that mode). I didn't have trouble getting it to activate, but when I got stuck behind a slower car, it went back to normal mode. In manual mode (paddle shifters), I was really good, but not perfect. I feel I was faster in manual mode, because I could hold a gear when waiting for the signal to pass. Also, I was worried that 8 gears would be too many to be sorting through as I went through the track, but I was only using 2-4, so managing three gears was easy as can be.

Now, I didn't get a chance to drive a manual to compare, but I know myself, and it would in now way be any more fun than what I experienced. Why? Because all the excitement came from the high speeds, trying to hit the perfect line, the sounds, the air buffeting my helmet at 130+ MPH, the power of the car when accelerating, the turn-in, the balance of the car when right at the limit, the HUGE grip, feathering the throttle so the back end doesn't swing around, etc. Using a clutch and gear shifter would have in no way made any of that any more enjoyable over using the paddle shifters to select the gears.

In fact, I am sure I would feel a little less engaged since the auto hits the next gear without the lag of a manual. Not enough to change the overall rating of my experience, but hearing the sound of a 2x4 snapping in half on upshifts in the straights was more fun than disengaging the engine from the rest of the drive train just to get the damn car into another gear. I want to go faster, not slower. And not because I need to win or be the fastest, or beat anyone else, but because faster is more fun. Slower is less fun. Doubt that? Then go to a road course and drive around it as fast as you can, then slow as you can (resonably without hindering others), and see which one you like more (no matter what trans you have). Fast=fun. Slow=boring as hell.

DISCLAIMER: This is all my own personal opinion, and is not meant to convince anyone one way or the other. You like manuals? Then I want you to buy the manual. Why? Because I want everyone to have the car THEY like, not the one I like.

[cwebster]

I'm getting close to 62 now and my preference for sports cars has not changed since I was 21 years old when I bought my first (used) "muscle car", a 1970 396 big-block Nova SS. I still compare every sports car I drive to that first one. My 2014 Camaro SS 1LE was very fast but the transmission didn't have the buttery smooth synchros of that old Muncie 4-speed. It's not just a romantic notion either. In 1975 I easily beat a corvette in a street race without even touching the clutch.

I definitely prefer the M6, even for city driving. It's not a chore for me. It's more like getting to play on my way to work - gets my heart pumping every time when I hear the exhaust note respond to the shift and throttle.

It takes more skill to go faster at the drag strip or get a better lap time at the track when you're using a manual shift so it means more to me. I didn't feel so bad that a CTSV beat my 1LE by 2 car lengths at the strip (thought it was a plain Caddy) when I knew the skill it took just to keep up. Besides, although I'd always prefer to win, I just love racing!

Don't misunderstand me... I'm fascinated by this new marvel of engineering. The A10 has got to be the most advanced mass-produced transmission in automotive history. I even considered waiting to order it, a steal at $1,595.00. Owning one of the first would be a wise investment too, sure increase in value over time. Watching all the videos and reading the specs, I'm certain it would be faster than the M6 and probably the fastest bone-stock production car on any track I'm likely to visit.

For me, it's not just about being the fastest car or owning the fastest, latest tech. It's all about the experience, as others have said. I've been waiting 40 years to buy this car... not to polish it up and parade it around town, although I'll do that from time to time, but to race it on road tracks. That's what this car was really engineered to do and that's what I intend to do with it. With a little experience and a fair number of failures, I expect to get quite good at it. Who knows, I may someday pass you in your A10 on track day at VIR or CMP. After all, those technical turns have a way of evening the odds.

Hope you all enjoy your new ZL1's, whether they're M6 or A10s. I know I will!

--Cal

[Stryfe]

Originally Posted by cwebster

I'm getting close to 62 now and my preference for sports cars has not changed since I was 21 years old when I bought my first (used) "muscle car", a 1970 396 big-block Nova SS. I still compare every sports car I drive to that first one. My 2014 Camaro SS 1LE was very fast but the transmission didn't have the buttery smooth synchros of that old Muncie 4-speed. It's not just a romantic notion either. In 1975 I easily beat a corvette in a street race without even touching the clutch.

I definitely prefer the M6, even for city driving. It's not a chore for me. It's more like getting to play on my way to work - gets my heart pumping every time when I hear the exhaust note respond to the shift and throttle.

It takes more skill to go faster at the drag strip or get a better lap time at the track when you're using a manual shift so it means more to me. I didn't feel so bad that a CTSV beat my 1LE by 2 car lengths at the strip (thought it was a plain Caddy) when I knew the skill it took just to keep up. Besides, although I'd always prefer to win, I just love racing!

Don't misunderstand me... I'm fascinated by this new marvel of engineering. The A10 has got to be the most advanced mass-produced transmission in automotive history. I even considered waiting to order it, a steal at $1,595.00. Owning one of the first would be a wise investment too, sure increase in value over time. Watching all the videos and reading the specs, I'm certain it would be faster than the M6 and probably the fastest bone-stock production car on any track I'm likely to visit.

For me, it's not just about being the fastest car or owning the fastest, latest tech. It's all about the experience, as others have said. I've been waiting 40 years to buy this car... not to polish it up and parade it around town, although I'll do that from time to time, but to race it on road tracks. That's what this car was really engineered to do and that's what I intend to do with it. With a little experience and a fair number of failures, I expect to get quite good at it. Who knows, I may someday pass you in your A10 on track day at VIR or CMP. After all, those technical turns have a way of evening the odds.

Hope you all enjoy your new ZL1's, whether they're M6 or A10s. I know I will!

--Cal

This. It's simply more fun to drive. Being connected to the car, rowing through the gears....it's all an experience.

[Ecchi667]

Originally Posted by cwebster

I'm getting close to 62 now and my preference for sports cars has not changed since I was 21 years old when I bought my first (used) "muscle car", a 1970 396 big-block Nova SS. I still compare every sports car I drive to that first one. My 2014 Camaro SS 1LE was very fast but the transmission didn't have the buttery smooth synchros of that old Muncie 4-speed. It's not just a romantic notion either. In 1975 I easily beat a corvette in a street race without even touching the clutch.

I definitely prefer the M6, even for city driving. It's not a chore for me. It's more like getting to play on my way to work - gets my heart pumping every time when I hear the exhaust note respond to the shift and throttle.

It takes more skill to go faster at the drag strip or get a better lap time at the track when you're using a manual shift so it means more to me. I didn't feel so bad that a CTSV beat my 1LE by 2 car lengths at the strip (thought it was a plain Caddy) when I knew the skill it took just to keep up. Besides, although I'd always prefer to win, I just love racing!

Don't misunderstand me... I'm fascinated by this new marvel of engineering. The A10 has got to be the most advanced mass-produced transmission in automotive history. I even considered waiting to order it, a steal at $1,595.00. Owning one of the first would be a wise investment too, sure increase in value over time. Watching all the videos and reading the specs, I'm certain it would be faster than the M6 and probably the fastest bone-stock production car on any track I'm likely to visit.

For me, it's not just about being the fastest car or owning the fastest, latest tech. It's all about the experience, as others have said. I've been waiting 40 years to buy this car... not to polish it up and parade it around town, although I'll do that from time to time, but to race it on road tracks. That's what this car was really engineered to do and that's what I intend to do with it. With a little experience and a fair number of failures, I expect to get quite good at it. Who knows, I may someday pass you in your A10 on track day at VIR or CMP. After all, those technical turns have a way of evening the odds.

Hope you all enjoy your new ZL1's, whether they're M6 or A10s. I know I will!

--Cal

Hey, CMP is my local track! I hope to see you out there some day!

[bobby35ny]

Originally Posted by cwebster

I'm getting close to 62 now and my preference for sports cars has not changed since I was 21 years old when I bought my first (used) "muscle car", a 1970 396 big-block Nova SS. I still compare every sports car I drive to that first one. My 2014 Camaro SS 1LE was very fast but the transmission didn't have the buttery smooth synchros of that old Muncie 4-speed. It's not just a romantic notion either. In 1975 I easily beat a corvette in a street race without even touching the clutch.

I definitely prefer the M6, even for city driving. It's not a chore for me. It's more like getting to play on my way to work - gets my heart pumping every time when I hear the exhaust note respond to the shift and throttle.

It takes more skill to go faster at the drag strip or get a better lap time at the track when you're using a manual shift so it means more to me. I didn't feel so bad that a CTSV beat my 1LE by 2 car lengths at the strip (thought it was a plain Caddy) when I knew the skill it took just to keep up. Besides, although I'd always prefer to win, I just love racing!

Don't misunderstand me... I'm fascinated by this new marvel of engineering. The A10 has got to be the most advanced mass-produced transmission in automotive history. I even considered waiting to order it, a steal at $1,595.00. Owning one of the first would be a wise investment too, sure increase in value over time. Watching all the videos and reading the specs, I'm certain it would be faster than the M6 and probably the fastest bone-stock production car on any track I'm likely to visit.

For me, it's not just about being the fastest car or owning the fastest, latest tech. It's all about the experience, as others have said. I've been waiting 40 years to buy this car... not to polish it up and parade it around town, although I'll do that from time to time, but to race it on road tracks. That's what this car was really engineered to do and that's what I intend to do with it. With a little experience and a fair number of failures, I expect to get quite good at it. Who knows, I may someday pass you in your A10 on track day at VIR or CMP. After all, those technical turns have a way of evening the odds.

Hope you all enjoy your new ZL1's, whether they're M6 or A10s. I know I will!

--Cal

Agreed

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by MoreSpeed

As to no skill needed to drive a modern A10... "just push the gas pedal", that is a bit misguided and I am sure said to spur conversation. Pretty much every week, there is someone who stuffs their high tech car into the Armco. Driving at 9/10th or 10/10th's is anything but easy. Throw different drivers in the mix, different closing speeds, variations in track grip, the radiator fluid that the bozo in front of you just squirted all over the track with his or her non maintained car... off camber turns, etc,, etc.. It is a lot more involved than initially meets the eye for either a manual or Auto. Based on the above initial statement, it should be easy to be an Astronaut. All you have to do is sit in a chair.

HaHa! Yeah, there's a few provocative phrases in your post too.

Road tracks do require a lot of skill, whether you're driving an automatic or manual transmission. Some of the same skills apply to both; like reading track conditions, judging closing speed, approaching and leaving the apex, when to start braking, finding the best line, etc. Although driving a manual may put you at a disadvantage against an automatic in terms of overall performance, it requires additional skills. Heel-toe-braking, trail-braking, shift timing by the sound of the throttle, rev-matching, physical conditioning, etc. all require more work to learn. Learning and using those skills is very gratifying, especially when they can be used against other drivers with similar equipment. IMO competition is most exciting when you're pitting one driver's skills against another. If there is a large disparity between the performance of the cars themselves, you're comparing cars not driving skill. Sure the driver will take credit for the win but the true test is how the drivers perform in roughly equivalent machines.

Originally Posted by MoreSpeed

I kind of wish all of this technology was not allowed in racing as well. That soft squishy lump in the drivers seat is absolutely the limiting factor today. The cars are amazing now. It would be nice to get back to some of the old day series racing where everyone had the exact same low tech vehicles.

Also, with a manual, a well executed heal toe downshift is a thing of beauty. Oh wait, even the Manual 6 will do that for you with rev matching. Oh the manual has stability control as well, traction control, variable magnetic ride suspension, high tech LSD, etc... It looks like we would all have to be racing 1969 series cars to get away from all of the go fast, be safe technology that even the basic Camaros' have today. All these technologies also take away driver involvement. Ever drive an old 1970 with hardly any brakes and all that body roll fast? That is involvement.

This all becomes abundantly clear when you squeeze onto a formula car with zero electronic assistance. Flying by the seat of your pants is one of the most exhilarating experiences in motor sports IMO. Although I eagerly await my M6 ZL1, with its traction control, electronic LSD, MRC, and all its other goodes; I've never had as much fun driving as I did in the Bondurant Mazda Formula cars. The only help they have is a rev limiter. They don't even have ABS. There's no cushion in the seat pan either, by the way. Not one of the comforts I would have chosen to remove.

As for racing automatic machines against those with varying degrees of manual controls, one is not "better" than the other - just different. Whether one is more appealing to you depends upon your preferences and skills. For me, I'd like to drive them all but I'm buying the ZL1 M6.

--Cal

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by Ecchi667

Hey, CMP is my local track! I hope to see you out there some day!

When do they open it up for track days? All I see on their calendar are go-kart events.

[Ecchi667]

Originally Posted by cwebster

When do they open it up for track days? All I see on their calendar are go-kart events.

Turn One are on from January, SCCA start in March. The next one I'll be at will most likely be the SCCA Night Tracks. April 20th. If they put a Night Track on sooner I'll shoot for that, too. In the mean time, I'm going to give autocross a go in NC come February.

http://www.carolinamotorsportspark.com/calendar.html