[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

V8 vs V6 my friend. Different engine classification. Naturally aspirated VS Forced induction. Different engine classification.

There are no moving goalpoasts.

Read my other post in regards to time. Different years and different drivers can mean many seconds.



For the rest of us. Again, read.

I read just fine. Here is your first quote:

" Different engine sizes, different classes...."

Now you are saying "V8 vs V6 my friend. Different engine classification. Naturally aspirated VS Forced induction. Different engine classification."

Those are two completely different statements. Not the same at all.

And again, your are putting false constraints upon the discussion. You asked if a person was to want to get a track focused vehicle, and is cross shopping Ford and GM.....

You didn't say, ...that can only have a V8, it can only be of such size engine, or else I will arbitrarily say it is in a different class (even though it is a track focused vehicle), and not consider it.

Your stacking the deck, and it's obvious to everyone.

Why don't you just say, I want a track focused car, it has to be a Ford, and I don't care if is slower than the GM cars. Then the Ford wins.

The facts of the matter are, the V6 1LE and the GT (PP or not) are NOT in the same segment, but the V6 1LE will probably be the faster car with the same driver same day same track, even on a big track like VIR. That is an embarrassment to Ford. The 1SS 1LE and the non-R GT350 are NOT in the same segment (the GT350 even costs $10-$15k more), BUT the 1SS 1LE will probably turn out to be faster than the non-R GT350, and that is a HUGE embarrassment to FORD. The GT350R and the C7 GS are NOT in the same segment, BUT the C7 GS completely blew away the GT350R at VIR by a whopping 4.7 seconds on a single lap!!! Again, huge embarrassment to Ford.

Across the board, the GM cars are performing a full segment above their respective classes.

Now, with that said, there is nothing WRONG with any of those Fords. If you hate the look of the Camaro, and love the Mustang? Buy the Mustang of course. There is nothing wrong with that. I want everyone to love their car, and I hope that you are very happy with yours. But please don't twist yourself up into a pretzel, trying to make a false comparison that is biased towards the Ford. That makes no sense.

When you said that you like to put your arm out the window... that makes sense. Golf clubs fit better in the Mustang trunk and that is important to you? Buy the Mustang and be happy. Great. But if you are going to compare the two lineups based off of performance or track duty, GM wins. And wins by a large margin. In fact, the GM's are beating their Ford counterparts higher segment cars. It is a slaughter.

That's why over on the Mustang forums, you will hear the whole "...but the Voodoo engine is special..." argument, and many others (resale value, rarity, etc.). Yes, the Voodoo engine is special, but you can still feel special in second place behind the SS 1LE. And this is the perfect example of contradictory logic used by the Ford fans. You can't say that the Ford GT350 is in the same class as the SS 1LE, and at the same time say the Ford wins because of the special engine, rarity, resale value, etc. Those facts put them in different classes, and the SS 1LE will probably be faster anyway. That is a win for GM, not Ford...

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

It will be interesting to see how many V6 1LEs are sold. A lot of people were calling for Chevy to build a V6 1LE. Now lets see how many actually put their money where their mouth is.

And it won't matter if they don't sell many as all the parts are pretty much from the SS, so GM wins either way it seems...

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I read just fine. Here is your first quote:

" Different engine sizes, different classes...."

Now you are saying "V8 vs V6 my friend. Different engine classification. Naturally aspirated VS Forced induction. Different engine classification."

Those are two completely different statements. Not the same at all.

And again, your are putting false constraints upon the discussion. You asked if a person was to want to get a track focused vehicle, and is cross shopping Ford and GM.....

You didn't say, ...that can only have a V8, it can only be of such size engine, or else I will arbitrarily say it is in a different class (even though it is a track focused vehicle), and not consider it.

Your stacking the deck, and it's obvious to everyone.

Why don't you just say, I want a track focused car, it has to be a Ford, and I don't care if is slower than the GM cars. Then the Ford wins.

The facts of the matter are, the V6 1LE and the GT (PP or not) are NOT in the same segment, but the V6 1LE will probably be the faster car with the same driver same day same track, even on a big track like VIR. That is an embarrassment to Ford. The 1SS 1LE and the non-R GT350 are NOT in the same segment (the GT350 even costs $10-$15k more), BUT the 1SS 1LE will probably turn out to be faster than the non-R GT350, and that is a HUGE embarrassment to FORD. The GT350R and the C7 GS are NOT in the same segment, BUT the C7 GS completely blew away the GT350R at VIR by a whopping 4.7 seconds on a single lap!!! Again, huge embarrassment to Ford.

Across the board, the GM cars are performing a full segment above their respective classes.

Now, with that said, there is nothing WRONG with any of those Fords. If you hate the look of the Camaro, and love the Mustang? Buy the Mustang of course. There is nothing wrong with that. I want everyone to love their car, and I hope that you are very happy with yours. But please don't twist yourself up into a pretzel, trying to make a false comparison that is biased towards the Ford. That makes no sense.

When you said that you like to put your arm out the window... that makes sense. Golf clubs fit better in the Mustang trunk and that is important to you? Buy the Mustang and be happy. Great. But if you are going to compare the two lineups based off of performance or track duty, GM wins. And wins by a large margin. In fact, the GM's are beating their Ford counterparts higher segment cars. It is a slaughter.

That's why over on the Mustang forums, you will hear the whole "...but the Voodoo engine is special..." argument, and many others (resale value, rarity, etc.). Yes, the Voodoo engine is special, but you can still feel special in second place behind the SS 1LE. And this is the perfect example of contradictory logic used by the Ford fans. You can't say that the Ford GT350 is in the same class as the SS 1LE, and at the same time say the Ford wins because of the special engine, rarity, resale value, etc. Those facts put them in different classes, and the SS 1LE will probably be faster anyway. That is a win for GM, not Ford...

Agreed, I don't know about him but all of the comparisons I am making are strictly based on price and performance.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

It's fine for you. I test drove one and hated it.

So you drove one for 15 minutes and that is your basis? It's like any car, it takes a little getting used to, and then it is fine. I drive my friends F430 sometimes, you can't see shit to the sides or out the back, but after driving it a few times you learn how to use the sight lines you're given...

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

So you drove one for 15 minutes and that is your basis? It's like any car, it takes a little getting used to, and then it is fine. I drive my friends F430 sometimes, you can't see shit to the sides or out the back, but after driving it a few times you learn how to use the sight lines you're given...

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Thor142

This was pretty dumb. A lot of 5th gen owners bad mouth the gen 6 more than the Mustang fans do. They said make us a gen 5 that smaller and lighter and faster. Then they cried and said they hated it LOL

Owners of the previous generation car nearly ALWAYS do that. Makes them feel better...then a year later they end up buying one.

I mean when the new Mustang came out, holy shit S197 owners lost their shit and weren't going to buy a "Fusion coupe". I was an S197 owner then, I liked the S550 from day one looks wise, but I was the exception. To me Ford dropped the ball big time by not making the car perform any better than the S197...so they lost my sale. Then I drove a 6th gen SS, and said "holy what an improvement over my 5th gen". I had a 2010 SS before my two S197 Coyotes...so I am far from biased either way.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

And it won't matter if they don't sell many as all the parts are pretty much from the SS, so GM wins either way it seems...

True, same for the SS. As far as I can tell, it's almost all ZL1 suspension components. This 1LE has fewer unique parts than the last one but is twice the money.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

True, same for the SS. As far as I can tell, it's almost all ZL1 suspension components. This 1LE has fewer unique parts than the last one but is twice the money.

But it has more parts, and more standard parts. Like how much was the NPP and Recaros on the 5th gen 1LE? Those are both included in the 6th gen 1LE...so add those both in and the prices are pretty close. And the 5th gen 1LE had no MRC...

IMO the E-LSD alone is worth it...

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I read just fine. Here is your first quote:

" Different engine sizes, different classes...."

Now you are saying "V8 vs V6 my friend. Different engine classification. Naturally aspirated VS Forced induction. Different engine classification."

Those are two completely different statements. Not the same at all.

And again, your are putting false constraints upon the discussion. You asked if a person was to want to get a track focused vehicle, and is cross shopping Ford and GM.....

You didn't say, ...that can only have a V8, it can only be of such size engine, or else I will arbitrarily say it is in a different class (even though it is a track focused vehicle), and not consider it.

Your stacking the deck, and it's obvious to everyone.

Why don't you just say, I want a track focused car, it has to be a Ford, and I don't care if is slower than the GM cars. Then the Ford wins.

The facts of the matter are, the V6 1LE and the GT (PP or not) are NOT in the same segment, but the V6 1LE will probably be the faster car with the same driver same day same track, even on a big track like VIR. That is an embarrassment to Ford. The 1SS 1LE and the non-R GT350 are NOT in the same segment (the GT350 even costs $10-$15k more), BUT the 1SS 1LE will probably turn out to be faster than the non-R GT350, and that is a HUGE embarrassment to FORD. The GT350R and the C7 GS are NOT in the same segment, BUT the C7 GS completely blew away the GT350R at VIR by a whopping 4.7 seconds on a single lap!!! Again, huge embarrassment to Ford.

Across the board, the GM cars are performing a full segment above their respective classes.

Now, with that said, there is nothing WRONG with any of those Fords. If you hate the look of the Camaro, and love the Mustang? Buy the Mustang of course. There is nothing wrong with that. I want everyone to love their car, and I hope that you are very happy with yours. But please don't twist yourself up into a pretzel, trying to make a false comparison that is biased towards the Ford. That makes no sense.

When you said that you like to put your arm out the window... that makes sense. Golf clubs fit better in the Mustang trunk and that is important to you? Buy the Mustang and be happy. Great. But if you are going to compare the two lineups based off of performance or track duty, GM wins. And wins by a large margin. In fact, the GM's are beating their Ford counterparts higher segment cars. It is a slaughter.

That's why over on the Mustang forums, you will hear the whole "...but the Voodoo engine is special..." argument, and many others (resale value, rarity, etc.). Yes, the Voodoo engine is special, but you can still feel special in second place behind the SS 1LE. And this is the perfect example of contradictory logic used by the Ford fans. You can't say that the Ford GT350 is in the same class as the SS 1LE, and at the same time say the Ford wins because of the special engine, rarity, resale value, etc. Those facts put them in different classes, and the SS 1LE will probably be faster anyway. That is a win for GM, not Ford...

Post of the day right here ^^^

[SpeedIsLife]

Well in defense of the S550..Ford (IIRC) always said they wanted to keep the performance of the S197 intact while improving the car as a whole (interior, rigidity, etc), and on the cheap(ish). They said the benchmark for the GTPP was the outgoing Boss 302, which it did match and surpass.
The auto's are roughly as fast as the outgoing cars, with the exception of those hero runs.

But I really do agree...people who own the last generation, especially the 2 MY's preceding the generation shift, tend to be the most salty. I personally want to have a Gen 6, but I also wouldn't have my feelings hurt to get another Gen 5..but I'm just a car guy who appreciates both for their strengths and weaknesses

[LSxWittles]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

But I really do agree...people who own the last generation, especially the 2 MY's preceding the generation shift, tend to be the most salty. I personally want to have a Gen 6, but I also wouldn't have my feelings hurt to get another Gen 5..but I'm just a car guy who appreciates both for their strengths and weaknesses

Agreed. Hell I still own two 4th gens (Firebirds) and I've always loved the looks of the 5th gen and wanted one the second I heard they were bringing the Camaro back (still sad about Pontiac tho lol). I can remember getting quite a bit of flack from friends who also had 4th gens for liking and appreciating the 5th gen. Now that I plan to get a 6th gen, some of those same friends are now in 5th gens and hate the 6th gen lol. I dunno what it is but I've seen it with the F body, Mustang, Corvette, hell even the 350/370 crowd and more. Guess I'll just never understand it honestly.

Back on topic tho, both 1le's look to perform amazingly and whoever finds themselves in one I'm sure will not be disappointed. Oh and if I had the money for both, I'd get a 350R also. Man can dream lol

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I read just fine. Here is your first quote:

" Different engine sizes, different classes...."

Now you are saying "V8 vs V6 my friend. Different engine classification. Naturally aspirated VS Forced induction. Different engine classification."

Those are two completely different statements. Not the same at all.

And again, your are putting false constraints upon the discussion. You asked if a person was to want to get a track focused vehicle, and is cross shopping Ford and GM.....

You didn't say, ...that can only have a V8, it can only be of such size engine, or else I will arbitrarily say it is in a different class (even though it is a track focused vehicle), and not consider it.

Your stacking the deck, and it's obvious to everyone.

Why don't you just say, I want a track focused car, it has to be a Ford, and I don't care if is slower than the GM cars. Then the Ford wins.

The facts of the matter are, the V6 1LE and the GT (PP or not) are NOT in the same segment, but the V6 1LE will probably be the faster car with the same driver same day same track, even on a big track like VIR. That is an embarrassment to Ford. The 1SS 1LE and the non-R GT350 are NOT in the same segment (the GT350 even costs $10-$15k more), BUT the 1SS 1LE will probably turn out to be faster than the non-R GT350, and that is a HUGE embarrassment to FORD. The GT350R and the C7 GS are NOT in the same segment, BUT the C7 GS completely blew away the GT350R at VIR by a whopping 4.7 seconds on a single lap!!! Again, huge embarrassment to Ford.

Across the board, the GM cars are performing a full segment above their respective classes.

Now, with that said, there is nothing WRONG with any of those Fords. If you hate the look of the Camaro, and love the Mustang? Buy the Mustang of course. There is nothing wrong with that. I want everyone to love their car, and I hope that you are very happy with yours. But please don't twist yourself up into a pretzel, trying to make a false comparison that is biased towards the Ford. That makes no sense.

When you said that you like to put your arm out the window... that makes sense. Golf clubs fit better in the Mustang trunk and that is important to you? Buy the Mustang and be happy. Great. But if you are going to compare the two lineups based off of performance or track duty, GM wins. And wins by a large margin. In fact, the GM's are beating their Ford counterparts higher segment cars. It is a slaughter.

That's why over on the Mustang forums, you will hear the whole "...but the Voodoo engine is special..." argument, and many others (resale value, rarity, etc.). Yes, the Voodoo engine is special, but you can still feel special in second place behind the SS 1LE. And this is the perfect example of contradictory logic used by the Ford fans. You can't say that the Ford GT350 is in the same class as the SS 1LE, and at the same time say the Ford wins because of the special engine, rarity, resale value, etc. Those facts put them in different classes, and the SS 1LE will probably be faster anyway. That is a win for GM, not Ford...

Big post, just a couple responses.

I'm not quite sure where I quoted " Different engine sizes, different classes...." , but I thought it was clear in my statements throughout. Engine sizes don't matter. Forced induction VS naturally aspirated does (for the track), as does V6 vs V8.

I personally don't care what Ford thinks of any of this. They will likely put out another track vehicle that the common man can't afford due to dealer markup. Everything I have stated was for comparisons sake. I have never argued that GM isn't winning the performance war, quite the contrary...they have been on top for the past 20 years. I thought that also was pretty clear.

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

So you drove one for 15 minutes and that is your basis? It's like any car, it takes a little getting used to, and then it is fine. I drive my friends F430 sometimes, you can't see shit to the sides or out the back, but after driving it a few times you learn how to use the sight lines you're given...

Good luck getting a dealer to let you drive the car for a few weeks to get used it it. Everyone tests drives a vehicle for 15 miles. This is the determining factor on what they are willing to live with...and a big reason why the Camaro doesn't sell.

I don't wan't to have to "get used to" a poor design. Yes, the trunk is a poor design. Yes, blind spot is a poor design. The general public agrees...it's a large reason why sales are so poor. If the mustang had the same issues as the camaro, I would not have purchased one.

I could test drive and marry a fast, sloppy hooker, but that doesn't mean I should.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Good luck getting a dealer to let you drive the car for a few weeks to get used it it. Everyone tests drives a vehicle for 15 miles. This is the determining factor on what they are willing to live with...and a big reason why the Camaro doesn't sell.

No. The Camaro isn't selling because it's too expensive. Your average Joe who doesn't spend all day on here or M6g is buying the affordable V8 coupe

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

I don't wan't to have to "get used to" a poor design. Yes, the trunk is a poor design. Yes, blind spot is a poor design. The general public agrees...it's a large reason why sales are so poor. If the mustang had the same issues as the camaro, I would not have purchased one.

No the general public doesn't agree. The general public is buying the affordable sport coupe.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

I could test drive and marry a fast, sloppy hooker, but that doesn't mean I should.

You definitely should....then grow a mullet.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

...
I could test drive and marry a fast, sloppy hooker, but that doesn't mean I should.

You're making it sound like that's a bad thing.



In the end, there are plenty of cars for everyone to enjoy for their particular reasons, however logical, hysterical, or somewhere in between.

Just for the record, the 6g Camaro SS I test drove had amazing rearward visibility....





....compared to my Lotus Exige S, which doesn't have a rear window. See how it's all relative?