[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Thor142

Why aren't you writing commercials for GM right now. A black SS roaring through an empty race track at night with Children of the Grave main riff blaring in the background. Powerslides up next to Toni Iommi in a professors outfit and he presents it with it's finishing school diploma.


Sorry got carried away.

Ha, thanks.

My career over the past twenty years has been in the advertising/design field. So sometimes things just come out of my mouth/mind lol.

[aestil]

Originally Posted by hangover

What really surprises me is how the 1SS isn't taking off. I mean, you get the Vette motor for 36k? They should be selling a TON of these.

The problem is, the car got too small, trunk and rear seats are a complete joke, you are wrong about the rear seats - they are usable on the Mustang - they are NOT on the Camaro - and the 1SS interior is just horrible. So basically people are going with the Mustang and Challenger because you get unfathomable larger cars in the segment for under 33K / 30K respectively. I'm only talking the V8s.

The V6 last gen Camaro was really nice. I love the convertible. Why they don't have the RS is just more clueless GM *something*.. Unless they are limited by the Cadillac plant or something - who knows - who cares I guess.

My personal experience - wanted to love the new Camaro really bad. I like a small package - 135i - was my last car - and this Camaro has NO room in the back seats, horrible visibility compared to a supposed compact 135i for crying out loud. If GM had just got 2-3 more inches of leg room, some extra space in the trunk OPENING, I'd be all over the car for say, 42K. I'm talking about a 2SS with mag ride and exhaust setting option. Because of the limitations of the Camaro, I decided I didn't want the "slow" Mustang 5.0 (which is not fast enough for me) and went with the best car in the segment currently - the GT350.

I've been in both cars. My wife who is 5'6" can not sit in the rear seat because of the aggressive slope of the fastback roofline. She has to sit with her head tilted to the side. Also she obviously can't sit behind me and I can't sit behind her for head room and legroom reasons.

Clearly the visibility is important to you. I find the Mustang to be marginally better than the Camaro, but neither are paragons of visibility. It's not like driving a Camary or Civic. You give up certain things for other things.

Clearly all your complaints are very important to you. I personally feel the reason they aren't selling a bunch of 1SS is because they have done a terrible job messaging just exactly what you get for $37k.

I'm with you also, the 2SS with MRC and NPP is the sweet spot for this car. The exhaust sounds amazing and the MRC really stretches out the already considerable difference in suspension between the Camaro and Mustang GT. It makes the car motions so controlled and sorted out.

Under medium acceleration the Mustang GT squats back way too much and feels like mush to me. The Camaro has the sort of no fuss, planted and confident suspension that is highly appealing to me.

As far as looks I would give the Gen 5 Camaro a 4/10, a S550 Mustang a 7.5/10 and the Gen 6 Camaro a 7/10.

The rear trunk space in the Mustang is nice, but I'm not going to buy a V8 sports car based on the trunk space. If that was the most important thing to me 1) I wouldn't be looking at 2 door cars and 2) I would want a hatchback. The Camaro trunk is large enough that I can put bags in it for a weekend getaway for me and my wife with room to spare. I don't need anything more than that.

edit: quick mention that I see a bunch of Mustangs around here [SoCal] and a very large percentage of them have awful panel alignment. Especially the hood looks awful. This is just anecdotal, and I don't see as many Gen 6 Camaros to compare to, but the Mustang has a feeling to me of being poorly manufactured when I look at the panel misalignment.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by DeliveryMan

Spook, you are right, I really assume that GM figured that the Camaro 2LT RS w/V6 would really become the replacement (in a round about way) for the SS. THe V6 Camaro is a a pretty bad ass car....but I think that this was a miscalculation on GM's part and they are seeing it in the Sales war with the Challenger and the Mustang.

Basically what I am saying is that GM thought that the market would shift and that most consumers would gobble up the V6 Camaro. If you look at almost every other car segment the V6 is the premium engine for the most part.

ANother thing is that I think GM also got a bit arrogant since the Silverado still sells with a $50k sticker and most ppl will still buy em, so in their reasoning they may have thought that consumers would be fine with the price of the Camaro.... but it is easier for a consumer to justify buying a pick up truck over a Pony Car.

I wanted the 2SS and got it, but I still was turned off about the price at first.
I did my research and then ordered it. The car is worth the price...but most consumers will not see that initially or even at all.

Just my take on everything.

Same here... I complained about price at first then I went and test drove it and then the realization set in that the new SS is a much better car than the G5 Camaro. It is a much more refined sports coupe now. I think of it as if the Caddy ATS and Corvette had a child. Caddys are 40-50k, Corvettes are 60-70k, why shouldn't a Camaro SS be 35-45k. Sounds like a good deal to me.

The only problem I have with this car is that it is too darn fast for the street. It really needs a track to explore its capabilities. Good problems to have I guess.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Red Chief

$31k for this. I hadn't noticed how Ford copied the Camaro's side panels...

http://www.holzhauers.com/inventory/...s.cfm?id=10642

They didn't copy anything

[Davy_Baby9]

I'm back since this morning, what did I miss?

Not sure why these threads are so long. Pretty easy to see why the sales are the way they are. I'm assuming sales will be consistent and the Camaro will be last compared to its direct competitors. Which means consistent discounts until the way sooner than later refresh comes out.

I'm not sure if big discounts and incentives were in GM's less is more sales strategy. It should help with the sticker shock people. Performance doesn't always equal good sales.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I think some of the design changes would have appealed to some but not have appealed to others and probably wash each other out. For example, if you lower the belt line and raise the roof then you lose that unique chopped top look to slightly improve visibility. It is hard to market a car based on how good it's visibility is. I have a family minivan as well with more glass in it than greenhouse and I have no problems with visibility when I go from the minivan to driving the Camaro. Sure it's worse but it is not like I am driving blindfolded.

This is just me, but I am not sure why anyone who values practicality even considers a 2 door sports coupe. To me, the whole point of a car like this is for it to be more special than a typical sedan. If I wanted a practical sedan there are so many options out there from Camrys to Maximas or even Infiniti Q50s or Lexus GS350s if you want more luxury. I have owned all those and they get boring in about 6 months whereas the driving experience of the Camaro continues to put a smile on my face each time I drive it.

I agree with your passionate point. But when you get too focused, you will lose sales. When you design a car that you think will really excite a Camaro enthusiast but don't try to win the sale of someone who just wants a great looking car with great performance, you will have fewer sales.

They designed the Camaro for a limited audience. Not a problem and this website alone is full of people that wear poor visibility like a badge of honor and get horribly offended when you even mention that it actually is BAD. I love the passion people have for this car. It's why even as a non-owner I come here nearly every day to talk about Camaros. This one just missed the mark for me and because of what I've done in my career and the people I've worked with I know it could have been a different and higher selling car.

I do believe if you had made the car a bit more practical, that had at least the rear seat room of the Gen5, at least the trunk space of a Gen5 (held two sets of golf clubs with the rear seat UP) and improved the visibility just a little bit you would have had a car with much broader appeal.

Now we can discuss all day about taking the car off of an expensive Cadillac platform. That has lead to the weight savings and rigid body that contribute heavily to the outstanding performance. So yes a more conservative design may have lost some of the "I want a BA Camaro" enthusiasts. But your consideration set would have been much bigger.

I can assure you GM has data on why people are not considering the Camaro. It's as important to know why someone is NOT considering your car as much as it is to know who IS considering your car.

Originally Posted by aestil

Quick comment, 10 day supply would be a disaster for GM and would mean that they had significantly underestimated demand and were then losing many many potential sales because of a lack of inventory.

This is like the apartment owner who never has any vacancies. It may seem like thats a good thing, in that he is collecting rent on each unit every month. But actually that means that his rents are too low. He needs raise rents and have periodic vacancies. When the unit is vacant he can repaint and recarpet and then rent out the unit at a higher rate than the last person was paying. Over time when you add this up he makes more money by occasionally having vacancies than he does by never raising rent and having 100% occupancy all the time.

It's a little bit counter-intuitive [it sounds good to basically be 'sold out' of something] but actually it represents a terrible misjudgment of the market and a potential loss of many sales. GM would much prefer to be overstocked 1 month of inventory then they would to be under-stocked 1 month of inventory.

In the car business, a 10 day supply early is typical and hoped for. The ideal is 30 or so days if I recall correctly. But pressure on the plant to run at full capacity is not bad, nor is having your salesman hold price at sticker for a longer period of time.

So 10 days is not preferred, but it is far from a disaster in a car less than a year in the market. If you could maintain it, it would be perfect. Typically you can't. Think iPhone. Not many of those people go aw shucks I can't get my iPhone on opening day I'll buy a Samsung. They wait, check inventories and wait and ultimately get what they wanted. In some cases the desperate will take a color or memory size they didn't want.

Originally Posted by aestil

I've been in both cars. My wife who is 5'6" can not sit in the rear seat because of the aggressive slope of the fastback roofline. She has to sit with her head tilted to the side. Also she obviously can't sit behind me and I can't sit behind her for head room and legroom reasons.

Clearly the visibility is important to you. I find the Mustang to be marginally better than the Camaro, but neither are paragons of visibility. It's not like driving a Camary or Civic. You give up certain things for other things.

Clearly all your complaints are very important to you. I personally feel the reason they aren't selling a bunch of 1SS is because they have done a terrible job messaging just exactly what you get for $37k.

I'm with you also, the 2SS with MRC and NPP is the sweet spot for this car. The exhaust sounds amazing and the MRC really stretches out the already considerable difference in suspension between the Camaro and Mustang GT. It makes the car motions so controlled and sorted out.

Under medium acceleration the Mustang GT squats back way too much and feels like mush to me. The Camaro has the sort of no fuss, planted and confident suspension that is highly appealing to me.

As far as looks I would give the Gen 5 Camaro a 4/10, a S550 Mustang a 7.5/10 and the Gen 6 Camaro a 7/10.

The rear trunk space in the Mustang is nice, but I'm not going to buy a V8 sports car based on the trunk space. If that was the most important thing to me 1) I wouldn't be looking at 2 door cars and 2) I would want a hatchback. The Camaro trunk is large enough that I can put bags in it for a weekend getaway for me and my wife with room to spare. I don't need anything more than that.

edit: quick mention that I see a bunch of Mustangs around here [SoCal] and a very large percentage of them have awful panel alignment. Especially the hood looks awful. This is just anecdotal, and I don't see as many Gen 6 Camaros to compare to, but the Mustang has a feeling to me of being poorly manufactured when I look at the panel misalignment.

Good points.

GM has made it pretty clear what you get for $37,000. And we all agree from a performance standpoint that is pretty good. I can also get a loaded Malibu for $35,000 or a loaded Impala for $40,000 or an SS Sedan for $45,000.

The problem (if there even is one) is fewer people than the Gen5 buyers, Mustang buyers and for two months Challenger buyers aren't willing to part with $37,000 for what you get.

I fully understand why for some people the visibility isn't an issue. Fully appreciate that I may be the only person on the planet that hoped the Gen6 would allow 2 sets of golf clubs in the trunk and I understand as a small coupe that hoping 4 adults of reasonable size could fit in the car for a short while. But I also understand why people don't care about the things I do.

[Red Chief]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

They didn't copy anything

Yes they did.

See how easy that was?

[raptor5244]

So, back to price and total cost of ownership. I know it is a little too early to tell but historically the Camaro has had better resale value than the Mustang. I have seen this time and time again when I see the cars run through the auction block. So, again if the Camaro costs a little more but does not flood the market and become a dime a dozen like the Mustang that should be worth a few points. So, you pay 3-4k more for the Camaro but you get it all back when you go to sell...

Here is an article by KBB listing the predicted Camaro resale value quite a bit higher than the Mustang. No mention of the Challenger...

http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-res...le-sports-car/

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

So, back to price and total cost of ownership. I know it is a little too early to tell but historically the Camaro has had better resale value than the Mustang. I have seen this time and time again when I see the cars run through the auction block. So, again if the Camaro costs a little more but does not flood the market and become a dime a dozen like the Mustang that should be worth a few points. So, you pay 3-4k more for the Camaro but you get it all back when you go to sell...

Here is an article by KBB listing the predicted Camaro resale value quite a bit higher than the Mustang. No mention of the Challenger...

http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-res...le-sports-car/

Nice.

[merlin803]

Maybe if industry analysts say it then people here won't think it is just being made up -

"Kelley Blue Book analyst Tim Fleming tells Motor1 that the raw delivery numbers don't tell the whole story, though, because there are far lower incentives on the Camaro. "GM’s strategy has more of a focus on profitability, but this is going to come at the cost of market share, as already seen in the sales numbers from this year. While sales are trending down, transaction prices and residual values for the Camaro are both doing very well and should help to build up the Chevrolet and Camaro brands in the coming years," he said in an email."

http://www.motor1.com/news/80568/cha...r-third-month/

Yet....somehow I think it isn't going to matter. There will still be plenty of Mustang owners over here trolling and trying to make themselves feel better about having a Mustang.

[sabasigh]

Originally Posted by aestil

edit: quick mention that I see a bunch of Mustangs around here [SoCal] and a very large percentage of them have awful panel alignment. Especially the hood looks awful. This is just anecdotal, and I don't see as many Gen 6 Camaros to compare to, but the Mustang has a feeling to me of being poorly manufactured when I look at the panel misalignment.

I have lurked here only recently with the release of the latest Camaro. I will say upfront I am a diehard Ford/Mustang man. However i could not pull the trigger on the latest Mustang, one reason being stated above. My '06 Mustang had the exact same panel gap issues...wtf Ford. I looked over many Mustangs at a local dealer a few months back when shopping and many had rear quarter panel fitment issues. I didn't even bother looking at their hood gaps.

Another reason i passed on the Mustang was power/suspension/performance. On the one hand, me personally would likely never fully utilize the capabilities of the stock Mustang, BUT i would still drive out of the dealership thinking: "ok i need an exhaust, CAI, lowering springs, shifter, IRS bushing to fix hop etc, etc. Seriously...i would feel like i got 80% a great car. If Shelby GT350s were readily available for list, i would be posting how what a happy Mustang owner i was tho.

So i looked elsewhere and i seriously considered the new Camaro, and while i really liked the Gen 5 styling and the familiarity of the Gen6 was fine...i could not warm up to the rear end treatment on the new car.

In the end, i took the plunge and got me a C7 Z51. Nothing bout this car leaves me wanting except the "Corvette tax" where a pair of floor mats is like $300 or some crap...what bs.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by merlin803

Maybe if industry analysts say it then people here won't think it is just being made up -

"Kelley Blue Book analyst Tim Fleming tells Motor1 that the raw delivery numbers don't tell the whole story, though, because there are far lower incentives on the Camaro. "GM’s strategy has more of a focus on profitability, but this is going to come at the cost of market share, as already seen in the sales numbers from this year. While sales are trending down, transaction prices and residual values for the Camaro are both doing very well and should help to build up the Chevrolet and Camaro brands in the coming years," he said in an email."

http://www.motor1.com/news/80568/cha...r-third-month/

Yet....somehow I think it isn't going to matter. There will still be plenty of Mustang owners over here trolling and trying to make themselves feel better about having a Mustang.

many here certainly won't take it from GM, when they say this is in fact their strategy and you know what, they probably have some pretty damn smart people working for them that believe this is the right strategy, maybe, as your blurb pointed out, not in the very short term, but for their long term strategy.

Smart people can make bad decisions and this may be one, time will tell; but their decision is based on well reasoned and thoughtful decision making.

If they lose some market share to Mustang...why do any of us need to care, is the sales pissing match a barometer of how good you feel about your car?

and by the way, if this strategy means you can resell your car for more money...UMMM..excuse me but I'll take that over winning some sales numbers brawl.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

many here certainly won't take it from GM, when they say this is in fact their strategy and you know what, they probably have some pretty damn smart people working for them that believe this is the right strategy, maybe, as your blurb pointed out, not in the very short term, but for their long term strategy.

Smart people can make bad decisions and this may be one, time will tell; but their decision is based on well reasoned and thoughtful decision making.

If they lose some market share to Mustang...why do any of us need to care, is the sales pissing match a barometer of how good you feel about your car?

and by the way, if this strategy means you can resell your car for more money...UMMM..excuse me but I'll take that over winning some sales numbers brawl.

Exactly! People can not agree with the strategy and direction but to say that people on this site are just 'making up' the profit vs. number of sales strategy is just ignorance. GM stated that they were going in this direction months ago.

To what extent are they happy or unhappy with sales? Who really knows, but the one thing that is clear is that comparing the sales numbers to past years or Mustang sales is apples to oranges.

[SpeedIsLife]

2009-2014: Camaro is king! Camaro dominating! Go Camaro!

2015-Present: Who cares about sales numbers anyway?

Granted few here were on the old Camaro5 threads, but the difference between the two camps attitudes is fairly striking. Camaro6 folks talk and act more like Vette owners than their Gen5 predecessors.