[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

How many BMW M4s do they sell per month?

In the US or worldwide? Either way it's not relevant since they are not in the same segment

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Well, it starts at over 66k and you would be hard pressed to fine just a base one. So im sure sales aren't that high per month. They usually arent on highend premium cars. Not sure what that has to do with Camaro sales though.

I was responding to the Motortrend Car of the Year not selling well comment. Everyone keeps comparing this car only to the Mustang and Challenger but when the MotorTrend guys tested the car they didn't even bother bringing a Mustang or Challenger, they put it up against a BMW M4. If and when folks realize that this car, at least in SS trim needs to be compared to higher end sports coupes then folks will stop complaining about price and open their wallets. If GM can't move the car slightly upmarket then sales will slump.

It takes time to change the image of a car. The Camaro is evolving from a relatively low cost muscle car to a much more refined sports coupe, hence the comparison to the BMW M4. I would bet most of the SS buyers are in the 35+ age bracket now as well. The younger generation who has missed out on the muscle car era probably doesn't care so much about the V8 sounds and performance if they even care about driving at all and that is what the T4 and V6 LTs trims are supposed to target at.

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by motorhead

I give a "rats ass" as you put it because I don't want the Camaro to disappear as it did once before. Agree that they should offer more 1SS trim packages. I either see V6s or 2SSs here for the most part on lots and they aren't moving.

Pretty much sums up my feelings about this. However, the "New" GM is much smarter and more saavy than the in-bred executives during the Rick Wagoner era.

Even though Mary and Mark are GM lifers, they have my complete support. I think they are doing a great job.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Bongos2U

Pretty much sums up my feelings about this. However, the "New" GM is much smarter and more saavy than the in-bred executives during the Rick Wagoner era.

Even though Mary and Mark are GM lifers, they have my complete support. I think they are doing a great job.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I was responding to the Motortrend Car of the Year not selling well comment. Everyone keeps comparing this car only to the Mustang and Challenger but when the MotorTrend guys tested the car they didn't even bother bringing a Mustang or Challenger, they put it up against a BMW M4. If and when folks realize that this car, at least in SS trim needs to be compared to higher end sports coupes then folks will stop complaining about price and open their wallets. If GM can't move the car slightly upmarket then sales will slump.

It takes time to change the image of a car. The Camaro is evolving from a relatively low cost muscle car to a much more refined sports coupe, hence the comparison to the BMW M4. I would bet most of the SS buyers are in the 35+ age bracket now as well. The younger generation who has missed out on the muscle car era probably doesn't care so much about the V8 sounds and performance if they even care about driving at all and that is what the T4 and V6 LTs trims are supposed to target at.

I get it that, but I feel that the person that is shopping for an m4 and truly has that type of coin won't be buying a Camaro just for the simple fact that too many of those folks are more into the perception of status a car brings over performace. Sure there will always be the true enthusiasts that will see the value in what the Camaro brings over just having BMW M series on the fender. The question is, are there enough of them? Time will tell all.

[sonnydurden]

Nobody in the market for a BMW M4 is remotely thinking about a Camaro. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The 6th Gen Camaro SS is an awesome car. But whether you like it or not it's in the same class as a Mustang and Challenger

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by motorhead

I get it that, but I feel that the person that is shopping for an m4 and truly has that type of coin won't be buying a Camaro just for the simple fact that too many of those folks are more into the perception of status a car brings over performace. Sure there will always be the true enthusiasts that will see the value in what the Camaro brings over just having BMW M series on the fender. The question is, are there enough of them? Time will tell all.

Agreed. That is one of the challenges with the car SS right now and the Motor Trend guys said it. The biggest problem with the Camaro is the Chevy badge. The question for GM is what are they doing to try to change that perception? Just some YouTube videos so far I guess.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by sonnydurden

Nobody in the market for a BMW M4 is remotely thinking about a Camaro. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The 6th Gen Camaro SS is an awesome car. But whether you like it or not it's in the same class as a Mustang and Challenger

The Camaro offers the performance of the M4 for a few thousand dollars more than a Mustang. Positioned WAY below the M4 and just a tiny bit above the Mustang.

The only guy comparing the Camaro to BMW is motorhead. Aiming higher than Ford doesn't equate to posturing for BMW

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The Camaro offers the performance of the M4 for a few thousand dollars more than a Mustang. Positioned WAY below the M4 and just a tiny bit above the Mustang.

The only guy comparing the Camaro to BMW is motorhead. Aiming higher than Ford doesn't equate to posturing for BMW

I realize it is a stretch but if the car is this good and it costs 20-30k less than an M4 then who is the right buyer for this car? I always ask the question each month in these sales threads, if price is the issue then how much should the car cost? Most seem to agree it is better than a Mustang, so should it cost the same as a Mustang or a little bit more? If more, then how much more?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by hotlap

We do have some numbers.

According to GM "The (gen6) Camaro is selling for $3,700 more on average than its predecessor"

July 2016 production = 5,520 -26% (Pr Ye)
So. July 2015 production = 7,460
7,460 - 5,520 = 1,940 less units in July 2016

Additional amount transacted (over 2015) for units produced July 2016
$3,700 x5,520 = $20,424,000.

Additional amount received for each additional unit not produced relative to 2015
$20,424,000 / 1,940 = $10,528

I have no idea if this volume was planned but it is now a shared facility transacting more per unit

Now subtract the piece price difference between a Gen5 and Gen6. All those improvements weren't free. Likely not 3700 but the 8 speed cost ps more LT1 costs more, interior costs more and the Alphaarchitecture costs more.

[HogsFan75]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I was responding to the Motortrend Car of the Year not selling well comment. Everyone keeps comparing this car only to the Mustang and Challenger but when the MotorTrend guys tested the car they didn't even bother bringing a Mustang or Challenger, they put it up against a BMW M4. If and when folks realize that this car, at least in SS trim needs to be compared to higher end sports coupes then folks will stop complaining about price and open their wallets. If GM can't move the car slightly upmarket then sales will slump.

It takes time to change the image of a car. The Camaro is evolving from a relatively low cost muscle car to a much more refined sports coupe, hence the comparison to the BMW M4. I would bet most of the SS buyers are in the 35+ age bracket now as well. The younger generation who has missed out on the muscle car era probably doesn't care so much about the V8 sounds and performance if they even care about driving at all and that is what the T4 and V6 LTs trims are supposed to target at.

LOL WHAT?

Because of low sales, you are seriously trying to say that a sports car that has directly competed with Mustang for 50 years, all the sudden is no longer competing with Mustang and Dodge for that matter, and needs to be moved into a completely different class?

I'm sure that's exactly what it is. Must be why they increased the price enough to make it inaccessible to a huge swath of the traditional target demographic too.

A bold strategy for sure.

[IOMike]

The issue with sales is a combination of styling and price.

It wouldn't be hard for Chevy to fix it, but will they? The market had spoken, they need to listen.

It needs more glass, a lower cut door and larger rear side window (like the 5th gen, which is the only thing better about the 5th). Restyle the front and rear (including a lot of work on the tailights)

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by HogsFan75

LOL WHAT?

Because of low sales, you are seriously trying to say that a sports car that has directly competed with Mustang for 50 years, all the sudden is no longer competing with Mustang and Dodge for that matter, and needs to be moved into a completely different class?

I'm sure that's exactly what it is. Must be why they increased the price enough to make it inaccessible to a huge swath of the traditional target demographic too.

A bold strategy for sure.

I am not saying it doesn't compete with the Ford or Dodge, however I don't think that is its only competition anymore. I haven't seen any video reviews where they put a Ford Mustang or Dodge Challenger up against the likes of a BMW M4.

Motortrend video Camaro SS vs. BMW M4

https://youtu.be/D87tO7VUs2I

[HogsFan75]

Originally Posted by IOMike

The issue with sales is a combination of styling and price.

It wouldn't be hard for Chevy to fix it, but will they? The market had spoken, they need to listen.

It needs more glass, a lower cut door and larger rear side window (like the 5th gen, which is the only thing better about the 5th). Restyle the front and rear (including a lot of work on the tailights)

Below are my personal reasons for buying a 5th gen 1LE in February instead of a 6th gen.

In my personal opinion, the front half of the car (to the B pillar) looks great. I love it. But from the B pillar back, it looks like ass. The spoiler and tail lights are terrible and the emblem placement is laughable.

Unlike most people I also hate the ipad like gauges and expect them to look dated relatively quickly. Digital gauges have never stood the test of time.

I also hate almost all of the wheel and tire options on these cars.

The final nail in the coffin though is that almost all the cars in my area at the time were either v6 models, or loaded 2SS cars which were almost all $50,000+ . Some were nearly $54,000

I'm not paying over 50 grand for an SS. I don't care how much "value" is in the car. It's still an SS camaro. Especially when you can buy extremely low mileage 5th gen zl1's and z28's for less.