[hotlap]

Originally Posted by motorhead

You would think so, but we just aren't sure. The large SUV segment and Truck market is a cash cow right now and for the most part always has been. Ford was a lot more vested in Europe and britex hurt them bad. Mustang profits may have nothing to do with it. Who knows for sure. From being in business myself, I know I would be nervous if my sales in a certain area dropped at the rates they have for the Camaro. If GM is doing this on purpose to make it a low volume niche car, then why offer it with a V6 and a 4 banger? It doesn't add up.

We do have some numbers.

According to GM "The (gen6) Camaro is selling for $3,700 more on average than its predecessor"

July 2016 production = 5,520 -26% (Pr Ye)
So. July 2015 production = 7,460
7,460 - 5,520 = 1,940 less units in July 2016

Additional amount transacted (over 2015) for units produced July 2016
$3,700 x5,520 = $20,424,000.

Additional amount received for each additional unit not produced relative to 2015
$20,424,000 / 1,940 = $10,528

I have no idea if this volume was planned but it is now a shared facility transacting more per unit

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Richard0nee

Should be my wallpaper!!!

I don't think anyone is arguing that the gen6 Camaro is a great car performance wise.

It would however appear that perfomace alone isn't the key factor in producing strong sales for this segment.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by aestil

This program should not be as expensive as the Mustang program. The Camaro shares a factory with the ATS and CTS, cars that GM needs/needed to compete with BMW/Merc. The engine is basically right out of the Corvette.

It wasn't free, but the costs are shared among multiple programs that they run.

You are correct, but not to the magnitude you think.

First, Ford shares powertrain tooling across more than the Mustang. Soon, the Mustang will have a 10 speed automatic co developed with GM. The Coyote? Basic fundamentals are in their OHC 5.0 truck engines. Just like GM. GM has versions of the LT1 in the trucks and SUVs.

All that common architecture? Well that is shared over 1,000 CTS per month, 2,000 ATS per month and 5,000 Camaros per month. Add those up and it's about what the Mustang is selling.

The common parts and architecture help, but remember GM had that with Zeta as well and that used the Corvette engine too. So GM's advantage isn't the cost here it's the choice of a better architecture to work with.

GM gets savings on the tools and development for the architecture only, but there is a HUGE amount still required to make it a Camaro, including all the tools to stamp and weld the body, a new IP and door trim.

Shared in the interior likely seat frames, steering wheel and steering column, cross car beam and seat adjusters. Yes, those save money and development costs and it helps enough to make this well worthwhile.

And don't forget Alpha architecture was developed to go against BMW and BMW and BMW. Not Ford. It's a Cadillac foundation with Cadillac content and pricing. Check out those cast aluminum strut towers under the hood. Nice!!! But not the cheapest way to get there.

Alpha is premium bones for the Camaro. And that shows up in the performance and weight. But it wasn't cheap by any means.

And most people don't understand that putting the Corvette Engine and Transmission in a different car is years worth of work to get ready. You just don't have the initial work to do. But to get a Corvette powertrain to propel a Camaro is a GIANT amount of work. Making a Camaro handle and drive like something completely different than an ATS or CTS is also a HUGE amount of work. Why do you think it takes well over a year to come out with the ZL1? The engine is already in two other cars ahead of the Camaro.

So yes there are cost advantages for using an existing architecture. GM and every OEM does it whenever they can. Ford is at a slight disadvantage here. But no different than other stand alone architectures i.e. Corvette.

[Richard0nee]

Originally Posted by motorhead

I don't think anyone is arguing that the gen6 Camaro is a great car performance wise.

It would however appear that perfomace alone isn't the key factor in producing strong sales for this segment.

Agree, I just love looking at it. Sales? I can give a rats ass about it lol The SS is worth every penny and performance, Alpha chassis, new interior has a lot to do with it.

What I don't really like how the dealers are loading fully loaded 2SS's on the lot. And the few 1SS's or the 2SS with just rims, NPP I see are selling fast.

My 1SS, with a few options was 37xxx out the door and that's what you call a bargain.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by aestil

I'm pretty sure you missed the point of what I wrote if that was your conclusion.

I just saw your analogy after I post mine. We were on the same thought

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by nvrsatisfied

Can they remove the rental fleet sales for a better comparison?

Ford is the current king of fleet sales, it's obvious they are going for volume over profits as well. Earnings this year have seen a sharp decline.

That said, the Camaro is probably selling lower than projected, even if it's at a higher transaction price. Common sense would say the Camaro costs more to build than a Mustang as its a superior car, so even though the transaction prices are higher on a Camaro, actual profit would most likely be a smaller gap.

Also, the Challenger is no where near a 9 year old car. The engines, transmissions and interior have seen major work overs, only the exterior saw a moderate update. To the average consumer, the difference between a 2009 Challenger and 2016 is only slightly less than comparing a 2010 Camaro to a 2016.

GM simply will not match Mustang sales unless they sell with enormous discounts like Ford has done since about day 1.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Richard0nee

Agree, I just love looking at it. Sales? I can give a rats ass about it lol The SS is worth every penny and performance, Alpha chassis, new interior has a lot to do with it.

What I don't really like how the dealers are loading fully loaded 2SS's on the lot. And the few 1SS's or the 2SS with just rims, NPP I see are selling fast.

My 1SS, with a few options was 37xxx out the door and that's what you call a bargain.

I give a "rats ass" as you put it because I don't want the Camaro to disappear as it did once before. Agree that they should offer more 1SS trim packages. I either see V6s or 2SSs here for the most part on lots and they aren't moving.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by HogsFan75

I understand what you are saying but I disagree with that take.

Being a "leader" in sales has always been a huge part of automotive marketing.
Do you really think they like being dead last in segment sales with a brand new refreshed platform? Also being beat by the Challenger which is more or less the same for 8 years. I think from a sales and marketing standpoint that can't be sitting well with GM.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see it

If they wanted to lead in sales volume they would have priced the new Camaro at or even below the Mustang. If they want to lead in net profit then they would have would have had to increase the price and have improved the car enough to justify the price increase. The more the cost the less they sell. I was talking to one of the GMs for an Audi dealer and he was comparing how business is so different vs. when he ran a Honda and Nissan store. With all the extra profit in the Audi line they only have to sell a fraction of them compared to the number of Honda and Nissans they would need to to meet their monthly sales targets.

For those that own the new Camaro, they can tell it is completely different car n the last gen. It is a 4 seater corvette stingray or an ATS with an LT1 in it. I love the fact that they built this car and I can buy it for only $40k.

[Richard0nee]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

If they wanted to lead in sales volume they would have priced the new Camaro at or even below the Mustang. If they want to lead in net profit then they would have would have had to increase the price and have improved the car enough to justify the price increase. The more the cost the less they sell. I was talking to one of the GMs for an Audi dealer and he was comparing how business is so different vs. when he ran a Honda and Nissan store. With all the extra profit in the Audi line they only have to sell a fraction of them compared to the number of Honda and Nissans they would need to to meet their monthly sales targets.

For those that own the new Camaro, they can tell it is completely different car n the last gen. It is a 4 seater corvette stingray or an ATS with an LT1 in it. I love the fact that they built this car and I can buy it for only $40k.

Exactly, preach on!!!

[maraging]

Im waiting for the fire sales then im gonna start shopping

[motorhead]

This report renforces my thoughts on the Camaro and where GM as a whole are right now. I don't believe the Camaro is currently having a hand in GM's performace this year. I just hope the other vehicles keep carrying the Camaro until they figure it out. Im glad to see them doing well as a whole. I did my part with a new 2500 a few weeks ago and an Equinox earlier in the year.



http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461941

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Dudie7

It isn't sitting well with them...that's a guarantee. Their Motortrend Car of the Year is being outsold nearly 2 to 1 by its main rival and is also losing the battle to the traditional 3rd place car. Listening to all of the baloney about profit margins and fleet sales is the ultimate denial of the truth...they did not get this car right. Flat out, plain and simple.

How many BMW M4s do they sell per month?

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

How many BMW M4s do they sell per month?

Well, it starts at over 66k and you would be hard pressed to fine just a base one. So im sure sales aren't that high per month. They usually arent on highend premium cars. Not sure what that has to do with Camaro sales though.

[Razzaa]

Originally Posted by motorhead

I give a "rats ass" as you put it because I don't want the Camaro to disappear as it did once before. Agree that they should offer more 1SS trim packages. I either see V6s or 2SSs here for the most part on lots and they aren't moving.

The sky is falling!!!!! It's a good thing we both did our part to contribute and bought a gen 6!!! Look at it this way, we will have the last gen Camaro in existence!!