[JDP Sales]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Good. That gives you credibility. I can't take any shop seriously when they don't offer at least centrifugal and TT options to their customers.
I had Prochargers in the 1990s, but I think you'll agree that ECS custom system is second to none.





I said to reread my post because I said the ECS centri will ALMOST match a PD in low RPMs.

ECS and other shops have posted comparison graphs with their centri with the restrictor plate installed overlayed withe PD and the ECS is close to the PD in low RPMs, and it absolutely destroys the PD everywhere else.
Not to mention, the LT1 makes great power down low. The the mid and high RPM where the big power is wanted, especially when traction is factored in.

I see what you are getting at and I wasn't trying to discredit that the ECS with the restrictor makes great low end for a Centri. I struggled greatly with my decision on which system to choose but I'm pretty sure I have landed on the Maggie. My car does have low end but with the right set of tires and a little self control, I felt like I would ultimately get the most enjoyment out of the Supercharger if the power was instant.

You really can't go wrong either way.

OP, we feel like 8 lbs is a good safe number on a stock bottom end.

All the best,

Jared Royce
801.545.4215

[Fenriel]

Originally Posted by JDP Sales

I see what you are getting at and I wasn't trying to discredit that the ECS with the restrictor makes great low end for a Centri. I struggled greatly with my decision on which system to choose but I'm pretty sure I have landed on the Maggie. My car does have low end but with the right set of tires and a little self control, I felt like I would ultimately get the most enjoyment out of the Supercharger if the power was instant.

You really can't go wrong either way.

OP, we feel like 8 lbs is a good safe number on a stock bottom end.

All the best,

Jared Royce
801.545.4215

Appreciate the info, and thank you for bringing it back to the topic!

[Fenriel]

Originally Posted by ericspt

I have an ECS C7 with Meth.

First off, no one really knows how they compare on a dyno at low RPM because most dyno's start at around 3000rpm.

I would not put a PD blower on a Corvette or Camaro unless I only wanted around 500-550 hp and similar torque to the wheels. Low end torque sounds great and is great with traction, without it the car is a pain to drive.

WOT there may not be much performance difference but part throttle driving around the PD will probably be more enjoyable because even at light throttle it does make way more torque.

it is also the reason the gas mile sucks. Our other 2 cars have PD style blowers and for small 3l V6's, both around 420hp, the mileage is abysmal.

I would have went with a PD blower but not with the tiny tires on the C7. I think the Camaro will take a much larger tire without forged wheels and a bunch of fitment drama like there is on C7 but even then unless you have a drag radial your driving around on the traction will not be there.

A Centri blower you get a better mix. At WOT performance is similar, you can make way more power without fighting heat, and the gas mile hit is not bad.

I don't take the gas mileage thing as a decision maker, I don't drive the car to make X MPG, I drive the car to enjoy it and is a poor argument overall in comparing the two.

Now add in the price difference and there is a huge difference.

A PD blower on a C7 is going to hit you for around 10K all said and done.

My ECS kit was $4,800, install with tune was $1,300, and a meth kit later on was $1,200 installed and retuned.

$7,300 installed and tuned for 645RWHP and if I remember right 585rwtq. No where near as much torque but much better overall drivability from a traction standpoint.

The safe limit for a stock LT1 is a bit more than I am pushing but I wanted it safe so I do not have headers and I'm right at the traction limit most of the time as it is.

Good info. the methanol for piece of mind?

[Fenriel]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

This is a loaded question. I will say that I'm pretty confident that when GM switched from LS to LT motors and decided to direct inject the motor and make more stock horsepower they did not downgrade the bearings crankshafts and rods in the LT motors. I expect the shortblock of this new motor is every bit as stout as the previous engines. But having said this, I have been on the forum boards and seen what I would call an overall increase it catastrophic engine failures in the early transition from LS to LT. There are several examples of owners posting stories of failures. I currently am thinking this is more related to isolated quality issues rater than an overall inferior design.

I will say that the tuners seem to be working a lot harder to make big power with these new LT motors. With the LS motors every shop out there was kicking out 750+ whp builds left and right over the last few years. The 750+ whp build is currently pretty rare on a LT motor. I think 700 to 800 whp should be pretty safe once everyone figures out how to fine tune the LT.



The biggest reason not to add methanol is the added complexity. The LT4 runs forced induction without methanol so clearly it is not absolutely necessary. Another reason is if you spray it in front of a PD supercharger the methanol will degrade the factory coating on the supercharger rotors.

But having said all of this I'm not totally against methanol. There are clearly a lot of advantages to running it. I have been told that my '16 SS will have a meth injection system the next time I see it. I had a meth system on my ZL1 for a while....

Apologies! The question was unintentionally loaded lol. Thank you for the info and pragmatic view.

[ericspt]

Originally Posted by Fenriel

Good info. the methanol for piece of mind?

Couple of reasons. One can't safely make more than 580ish rwhp on stock fuel system alone. This is on a C7 but I imagine the injectors and fuel system are identical with the Camaro.

Beyond that benefits are pretty big:

1. It's always 65 degree's out. Meaning the chemical cooling of the methanol makes your IAT's pretty stable regardless of the temp outside. That is a bit an exaggeration but the general idea is right.

2. Keeps valve coking to a minimum or eliminates it depending on what kind of driver you are. DI motors will built up soot on the valve stems because there is no fuel to wash and keep them clean like on a port injection motor. Since the meth goes past the valves it keeps them clean.

I guess that is another limiting factor of a PD Blower, can't run meth without a special port injection setup.

Lower horsepower, lower goals, and a car that is probably more fun to drive at that power level I would say a PD makes a lot of sense. I have one on my S4 and it is like an electric car. With the dual clutch and tune on there it makes near 400ft lbs of torque anytime you touch the gas, instantly. There is absolutely zero lag.

It makes it a blast to drive but its also AWD.

That kind of instant torque hit is going to break the back end loose and make it harder to control.

For more power, more drivable power at WOT and a hard charging top end the Centri makes more sense.

Tire choice is a big factor and the ZP's on the C7 are the absolute best tire I have ever driven on. They will hold 650rwhp pretty well even at 23k miles like I have on my set. I just do not see the F1's holding the power so an added cost will be a better tire choice which will be more critical with a PD blower, that adds even more cost on top.

No matter what dyno sheets show the Centri still takes longer. With a PD blower gear does not matter much. With a Centri 50mph in 3rd gear it takes a good couple of tenths for the boost to build and really go. Granted the car is fast either way but that big push doesn't come on for a bit.

I have not driven an SS yet. We went to the dealer today and they were closed, who the hell closes on a Saturday?

The wife is going to get an SS convertible assuming she likes it after she drives it. The fast part of me says do another Centri but I know for how she drives will prefer the PD blower but the missing 100 hp wil bug me

As far as reliability I drive my car pretty hard. I've filled the meth up probably 10 times, it lasts about 3 tanks of gas the way I drive. I've put over 10K on my setup, 1/2 at 545rwhp and 1/2 at 645rwhp. I've been cross country with the meth setup. I've driven it in 110 degree weather in the desert and 20 degree weather in the mountains.

If you stay under 700rwhp, get a good safe tune and pay attention to the car they are IMO super reliable. I've got more miles on mine than most, it'll have another 10k by the end of summer.

Personally I have a hard time believing the engine is going to make it more than 35 to 40 thousand miles without at least needed pistons or some other kind of upgrade. Maybe I'm wrong but we shall see.

If its short distance DD or weekend car it'll last forever. I drive mine no less than 2,000 miles per month and usually more than that and had no problem. Some people put way less miles on their car and drive them a lot easier.

[Fenriel]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Back on topic????
I gave you the best advice you're going to get for Forced Induction ( ECS ) and the recommended power levels for a stock LT1 (700rwhp).
You're welcome.

As far as meth, you should be consulting with the experts, and owners, and not listening to people who have no idea what they are talking about. Meth is added to for safety and will prevent failures. The added octane and power is just a benefit.
The 3 best mods for the LT1 are a ECS blower, long tubes, and meth. You will reliably make 700+ rwhp, and have a ton of room to make more power in the future.

I understand and do appreciate your advice. I also understand that you're very passionate about centris and that you have good intentions by trying to keep people informed based on your own experiences.

That being said though, the topic was just about what level of boost an LT1 can reliably take without any safety modifications like methanol and or forged parts, and how it will do long term. I did not ask about what method of FI is the best, nor do I want to turn this into a thread into a debate about it.

And I know the benefits of methanol, I just want to know how far you can safely push the LT1 without that safety net.

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Originally Posted by JDP Sales

Centri blowers do NOT make the same low end torque a PD Blower makes. Not even close. I'm not going to get into which is better but I felt inclined to correct in this situation.

All the best,

Jared Royce
801.545.4215

Exactly.

[ericspt]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Stop trying to bash centris when the only reason you do so is because you don't sell them and you make higher profits with your inferior PD blowers.


If people do their research, they will see for themselves that the ECS centrifugal is regarded as the best and most popular FI system by the Corvette and LT1 community for a reason - AND- that the ECS with restrictor place almost matches a PD is low RPMs and absolutely DESTROYS them everywhere else.

You sound like a commercial.

I have an ECS kit, its great.

But it does not equal a PD blower in low end torque. It just doesn't. PD blowers make 100 percent boost as soon as you touch the gas, centri's don't.

All the wheel dyno sheets in the world don't tell the story because they do not record torque from near idle. Have to put both on an engine dyno to get a true picture.

At 3000rpm they both may show the same torque, but before that the PD will always be higher.

I've had(and have) PD blower cars along with TT cars, stock and aftermarket. Nothing comes close to the instant throttle response in a PD blower.

My car is pretty docile up to about 3000rpm, not a ton different from stock, then it starts to really pull till about 5000rpm, from 5000rpm to redline its nuts.

Part throttle cruising around town you can't tell it even has a SC on it. In a PD blower car at part throttle your making nearly 100 percent of the torque at nearly any RPM.

You want a real argument, go talk the people who put huge turbo's on a car for a huge investment and the turbo's are so big the spool time they might as well went with a large centri and saved themselves a lot of trouble.

[toohighpsi]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

The PROVEN custom centrifugal systems have combined the best of both front mount twin turbos, and PD blowers, into one cost effective solution.

So clearly you have never tested a centrifugal SC on a SC performance stand - if you had access to that capability you quickly find out that the exact opposite was true...

It's a shame that all those folks at the OEM car makers have this capability, and they still decide not to use centrifugal SCs for their vehicles... LOL

[ericspt]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Dude, stop. OEMs use front mount twin turbos.
Only GM is running a PD blower in 2017, and it's only on the LTx.
Every other GM FI application gets TTs.

Every FI guy knows TT's are the ultimate FI.
Centris are a compromise based on power, cost, simplicity, etc.

If you've got the money and patience, go with TTs.
If not, go with a centi.
Again, it's not MY opinion. It's common knowledge.

No they do not.

Centri's are not used in OEM applications due to noise issues, complexity, and assembly.

PD blowers were/are used because they are the easier thing to package, throw it on top of the motor. Gas mileage suffers but Mercedes and maybe some others have clutches on the pulley so you do not hit boost just tooling around town.

Twin Turbo's are used compared to Singles for the same reason as the Centri. Routing complexity in a V engine and also in this case emissions. That is why most OEM turbo solutions in a V engine use a cast manifold with the turbo directly attached.

Easier routing, mounting of the turbo closest to the motor for responsiveness and lets them mount the cat closest to the motor for quick heat up.

Audi has stuck to A2A IC's because their basic design hasn't change in 20 years and they design with A2A in mind and it is a common design direction across every car they make, nearly everyone else is A2W again for packaging.

GM's 3.6TT barely takes up more room than a stock 3.6 that includes turbo's and IC because the engine package includes everything in a single assembly. Audi now mounts their V TT's in the valley, so does nearly everyone else, for assembly ease and packaging.

That is what matters in an OEM package, assembly.

[1KillerSS]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

I might sound like a commercial, or a dick, but everything I post is still accurate.........

Yea, its the second one.

[toohighpsi]

Originally Posted by JDP Sales

I see what you are getting at and I wasn't trying to discredit that the ECS with the restrictor makes great low end for a Centri. I struggled greatly with my decision on which system to choose but I'm pretty sure I have landed on the Maggie. My car does have low end but with the right set of tires and a little self control, I felt like I would ultimately get the most enjoyment out of the Supercharger if the power was instant.

You really can't go wrong either way.

OP, we feel like 8 lbs is a good safe number on a stock bottom end.

All the best,

Jared Royce
801.545.4215

Since we're kind of back on topic, the attached image is where I felt comfortable with Maggie and the stock LT1 HPDI fuel pump. There was about 4-5% left in the pump, but I like to leave some margin for the trims out there in the real world. This was at 7.5psi of boost so your 8psi would be dead on to hitting the absolute limit.

In the car, this made 610RWHP and pushed the 6th gen Camaro to a fun afternoon of 10.8s @ 129 MPH.

Next up - fuel pump upgrade and more boost!

[1KillerSS]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

And yet, everything I post remains true.
Centrifugals have been DOMINATING the PD blowers on the LT1.
A ECS centri with a restrictor plate will practically match a PD blower in the low RPMs, and absolutely DOMINATE them in the rest of the RPMs

I'm not going to get in the ring with you on that. There is no reason to be a jerk, you can get your point across without being an a$$. Not one single person here is going to respect you or your opinion acting that way. Not that you care, that's obvious by your reply's. You come across as arrogant, cocky and a know it all. Nobody wants to hear from that kind of a person. Try relaxing a little and not take things so seriously.

[Subperfect]

Since I will be going for FI as well, I thought this would be a interesting watch. Im trying to understand FI as much as possible and what are the pro and cons for the 2 different configurations for a supercharger in our cars. anyone on here with previously owned supercharged cars run into any belt slip or belt problems at all?