[Sledgehammer70]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I'm not sure what the problem with that is.

Ford built a Mustang GT that doesn't really perform any better than the car it replaced. They threw a performance pack on it that still underperforms against the heavier, less powerful 5th gen 1LE. Ford decided to do this ... so why is it that when GM decided to actually make the Camaro better, that its no longer fair to pit the SS 1LE against the GT PP? That a complete mechanical overhaul of the Mustang in the GT350 is considered equivalent to a Camaro with a couple minor tweaks?

To me, that kind of logic reeks of Ford fanboys trying to put their car back on top. Not calling you a Ford fanboy KMPrenger, just that its something that I would tend to expect from guys like thePill instead of Camaro faithful.

It was like this 6 years ago. When some were insisting that no, the naturally aspirated V8 Mustang that starts in the low 30s isn't really a competitor to the naturally aspirated V8 Camaro that starts in the low 30s. Of course not, that would be silly. The real competitor was the supercharged GT500 at around 50 grand. The Mopar guys did the same thing too. For a lot of them, it was the SRT8 not the R/T that should be compared to the SS.

Yeah Ford and Mopar will always try to craft their story to fit their needs. Camaro fans did the same thing when we we're not on top unfortunately.

This is how I see the line up for 2016 Camaro vs Mustang. Anything else is trying to shoehorn a car for car comparison that wasn't meant to be. (My opinion)

2016 Chart:
Tier 1: Camaro LT (I4) vs. Mustang (V6) - Entry level cars (Includes both 1LT and 2LT options)
Tier 2: Camaro LT (V6) vs. Mustang (I4) - Tier 2 Engine Upgrade (Includes both 1LT and 2LT options)
Tier 3: Camaro SS vs. Mustang GT - Tier 3 Engine Upgrade (Includes both 1SS and 2SS options)
Tier 3.5: No direct 2016 Camaro comparable vs. Mustang GT PP - Tier 3 Engine Upgrade + Track Options
Tier 4: No direct 2016 Camaro comparable vs. Mustang GT350 Vanilla - Tier 4 Engine Upgrade (This car seems to fit between a SS and a 1LE)
Tier 4.5: No direct 2016 Camaro comparable vs. Mustang GT350R - Tier 4 Engine Upgrade 100% Built for the track.

2017 First Look: (Guess)
Tier 1: Camaro LT (I4) vs. Mustang (V6) - Entry level cars (Includes both 1LT and 2LT options)
Tier 2: Camaro LT (V6) vs. Mustang (I4) - Tier 2 Engine Upgrade (Includes both 1LT and 2LT options)
Tier 3: Camaro SS vs. Mustang GT - Tier 3 Engine Upgrade (Includes both 1SS and 2SS options)
Tier 3.5: Camaro 1LE vs. Mustang GT PP - Tier 3 Engine Upgrade + Track Options
Tier 4: No direct 2017 Camaro comparable vs. Mustang GT350 Vanilla - Tier 4 Engine Upgrade (This car seems to fit between a SS and a 1LE)
Tier 4.5: Camaro Z/28 vs. Mustang GT350R - Tier 4 Engine Upgrade 100% Built for the track.
Tier 5: Camaro ZL1 vs. Mustang Boss or 500 - Tier 5 Engine upgrade

We can now look at pricing and adjust the above list to match that, but in general Camaro is punching above it's weight in almost all it's classes in 2016. We do not know how the Z variants or 1LE will perform or even if they will exists, but knowing GM they will out do the SS and each other etc.

[aa406079]

If we're making wishlists than I supposed the no-lift shift feature would be a nice hand me down to the new 1LE from the old ZL1....

That would definately help mitigate the arguement that the Voodoo is a better track engine....

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I'm not sure what the problem with that is.

Ford built a Mustang GT that doesn't really perform any better than the car it replaced. They threw a performance pack on it that still underperforms against the heavier, less powerful 5th gen 1LE. Ford decided to do this ... so why is it that when GM decided to actually make the Camaro better, that its no longer fair to pit the SS 1LE against the GT PP? That a complete mechanical overhaul of the Mustang in the GT350 is considered equivalent to a Camaro with a couple minor tweaks?

To me, that kind of logic reeks of Ford fanboys trying to put their car back on top. Not calling you a Ford fanboy KMPrenger, just that its something that I would tend to expect from guys like thePill instead of Camaro faithful.

It was like this 6 years ago. When some were insisting that no, the naturally aspirated V8 Mustang that starts in the low 30s isn't really a competitor to the naturally aspirated V8 Camaro that starts in the low 30s. Of course not, that would be silly. The real competitor was the supercharged GT500 at around 50 grand. The Mopar guys did the same thing too. For a lot of them, it was the SRT8 not the R/T that should be compared to the SS.

Whoa...slow down there.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it....not at all. I agree with you! I'm on your side lol. I remember very well when MT pitted an SS against a GT500.

I simply used the comparison of SS versus GTPP and 1LE versus 350 b/c I feel the Camaro is a more than worthy competitor in its "lower" packages to fight against versions of the Mustang that have performance options added (base SS versus GTPP)...or even a whole different model altogether (1LE vs 350). In my opinion, that shows you just how much higher performing the Camaro is.

But I will have to say that unlike your example above (6 years ago....low 30K car versus low 30K car) the price now is not that close if you want compare SS to base GT, or 1LE to GTPP. Now don't jump me again...I'm not calling the Camaro overpriced, and even I tell members here all the time about how a optioned out Mustang costs just as much as an optioned out SS.

But if we go down this road, price WILL be a factor. Example. I don't think there is anyway that a 6th gen 1LE is going to cost less than 40 to 41 grand. Take a base 1SS, add the 1LE package that will be at least 3 grand or more. Now you are comparing a 34-35K Mustang GTPP against a 41K Camaro 1LE.

That kind of price difference matters. Yes, the Camaro will crush the GTPP, but again, its not exactly apples versus apples (pricewise) like in your example above.

That's why I like to point out, that I think a 41 Camaro 1LE could be a viable competitor to a 50K GT350 is impressive. Is it a fair comparison? Well maybe, maybe not, but its fun to think about.

[joemosfet]

If you crush apples you can make apple sauce.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by aa406079

If we're making wishlists than I supposed the no-lift shift feature would be a nice hand me down to the new 1LE from the old ZL1....

That would definately help mitigate the arguement that the Voodoo is a better track engine....

It has Active Rev Match (ARM), that's a step in the right direction... They also had no-lift in the Cobalt and Skystices, HHR and I think the CTSV, so I think it's just software.

--kC

[joemosfet]

Originally Posted by Imp

It has Active Rev Match (ARM), that's a step in the right direction... They also had no-lift in the Cobalt and Skystices, so I think it's just software.

A lot of folks will say that no-lift-shift is really beneficial to those with forced induction (keeps the boost up between gears) but offers negligible performance increases for naturally aspirated vehicles.

Both the Cobalt and Sky/Solstice had a forced induction option, yeah?

[Imp]

Originally Posted by joemosfet

A lot of folks will say that no-lift-shift is really beneficial to those with forced induction (keeps the boost up between gears) but offers negligible performance increases for naturally aspirated vehicles.

Both the Cobalt and Sky/Solstice had a forced induction option, yeah?

Very valid and true. It keeps boost spooled, which is *exactly* what you want. Didn't look at it from that angle.

--kC

[bhavyas]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

Whoa...slow down there.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it....not at all. I agree with you! I'm on your side lol. I remember very well when MT pitted an SS against a GT500.

I simply used the comparison of SS versus GTPP and 1LE versus 350 b/c I feel the Camaro is a more than worthy competitor in its "lower" packages to fight against versions of the Mustang that have performance options added (base SS versus GTPP)...or even a whole different model altogether (1LE vs 350). In my opinion, that shows you just how much higher performing the Camaro is.

But I will have to say that unlike your example above (6 years ago....low 30K car versus low 30K car) the price now is not that close if you want compare SS to base GT, or 1LE to GTPP. Now don't jump me again...I'm not calling the Camaro overpriced, and even I tell members here all the time about how a optioned out Mustang costs just as much as an optioned out SS.

But if we go down this road, price WILL be a factor. Example. I don't think there is anyway that a 6th gen 1LE is going to cost less than 40 to 41 grand. Take a base 1SS, add the 1LE package that will be at least 3 grand or more. Now you are comparing a 34-35K Mustang GTPP against a 41K Camaro 1LE.

That kind of price difference matters. Yes, the Camaro will crush the GTPP, but again, its not exactly apples versus apples (pricewise) like in your example above.

That's why I like to point out, that I think a 41 Camaro 1LE could be a viable competitor to a 50K GT350 is impressive. Is it a fair comparison? Well maybe, maybe not, but its fun to think about.

I think I completely agree with all the points you have made so far... The current base SS beats the GTPP anyways... then why would we like to compare a more upgraded 1LE version to GTPP which is just going to improve the stats... I think this is what you are getting at... Now I have been reading a lot about the GT350... and though it remains the one of the only competitive Mustang in the lineup...the SS is not far off in performance from it... which I am guessing the 1LE package will help close out... It may/may not smoke the GT350... only time will tell... but I agree with you that I would like to think the 1LE has a more worthy competitor in GT350 than the GTPP... which its going to beat no matter what...

[BahamaTodd]

As pointed out here: http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428778

The "Performance" SEMA concept is running 305 rear tires and 285 up front.
More photos: http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428602

Along with the front splitter, blade spoiler, lowering kit, and 6 piston brakes, it would make for a good 1LE.





Probably don't want to go much wider than that on the 6th gen.

[Imp]

on what wheels? width?

[BahamaTodd]

They look to be the the optional accessory wheels. 20x8.5 front and 20x9.5 rear.

[Trans damm]

I like the 305's but those rims are awful.

[Memphis43]

Originally Posted by Trans damm

I like the 305's but those rims are awful.

They would be better in all black


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brad.]

I feel like they can squeeze much more than 455hp out of a 6.2