[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

It may be the case that Ford it choking the revised 5.0 from both ends in preperations for the LT1.

http://www.svtperformance.com/?p=7318

I'm sorry but that would be a complete dick move by Ford. If a 2016 Mustang GT is made with 465 HP and cost the same as the 2015 then that is a pretty sh!tty thing to do to current owners. Plus, Ford knows that a 2016 Camaro SS will not have more than 460 HP so why hold back for one model year? It makes no sense. Another reason I don't buy the rumor that the Mustang will gain that much power for the 2016 MY is because they would have to re test everything for that much more power and re certify everything for the following year.

How much does a BOSS gain from a cat back? Like 5RWHP or something. That's why I have a hard time believing the claims. 30RWHP gain on the new Coyote puts the overall power past what a BOSS engine makes with a cat back. With the intake manifold that they put on the new Coyote I just don't see it making more power than a BOSS engine. Then there is the MPG difference. If the current cat back exhaust is that plugged up there would be a pretty big difference in MPG and I don't see Ford leaving any of that on the table. 30RWHP gain from a cat back exhaust on a NA engine only happens when there is a serious restriction. Like pipe 2 sizes too small or a collapsed muffler.

Also, in regards to your link about the CAI. Why do people keep believing the claims of a open filter CAI with the hood up. The intake can draw as much ambient air as it damn well pleases in that configuration. The only way to properly test a CAI is at the track or on the dyno with a high speed fan and the hood closed.

[2011shelby]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Hmmm...

If the exhaust does indeed pick up 30 hp and 25 tq, combine this with a CAI and tune and that would be 430 whp and 400 wtq for less than 1,800 bucks in parts

That's ricer math.
Don't work that way in the real world.

[xc_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

I'm sorry but that would be a complete dick move by Ford. If a 2016 Mustang GT is made with 465 HP and cost the same as the 2015 then that is a pretty sh!tty thing to do to current owners. Plus, Ford knows that a 2016 Camaro SS will not have more than 460 HP so why hold back for one model year? It makes no sense. Another reason I don't buy the rumor that the Mustang will gain that much power for the 2016 MY is because they would have to re test everything for that much more power and re certify everything for the following year.

How much does a BOSS gain from a cat back? Like 5RWHP or something. That's why I have a hard time believing the claims. 30RWHP gain on the new Coyote puts the overall power past what a BOSS engine makes with a cat back. With the intake manifold that they put on the new Coyote I just don't see it making more power than a BOSS engine. Then there is the MPG difference. If the current cat back exhaust is that plugged up there would be a pretty big difference in MPG and I don't see Ford leaving any of that on the table. 30RWHP gain from a cat back exhaust on a NA engine only happens when there is a serious restriction. Like pipe 2 sizes too small or a collapsed muffler.

Also, in regards to your link about the CAI. Why do people keep believing the claims of a open filter CAI with the hood up. The intake can draw as much ambient air as it damn well pleases in that configuration. The only way to properly test a CAI is at the track or on the dyno with a high speed fan and the hood closed.

Totally agree with this. Imagine how pissed off you would be if chevy did this with the new Camaro. I don't believe this about exhaust and an x pipe picking up 30 whp. That's what a LS3 gets with headers and a tune.

If there are cats being removed then I guess it could be possible to gain close to 20 whp, but 30 from an x pipe and mufflers essentially? Nope. Don't buy it.

[khell86]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

I'm sorry but that would be a complete dick move by Ford. If a 2016 Mustang GT is made with 465 HP and cost the same as the 2015 then that is a pretty sh!tty thing to do to current owners. Plus, Ford knows that a 2016 Camaro SS will not have more than 460 HP so why hold back for one model year? It makes no sense. Another reason I don't buy the rumor that the Mustang will gain that much power for the 2016 MY is because they would have to re test everything for that much more power and re certify everything for the following year.

How much does a BOSS gain from a cat back? Like 5RWHP or something. That's why I have a hard time believing the claims. 30RWHP gain on the new Coyote puts the overall power past what a BOSS engine makes with a cat back. With the intake manifold that they put on the new Coyote I just don't see it making more power than a BOSS engine. Then there is the MPG difference. If the current cat back exhaust is that plugged up there would be a pretty big difference in MPG and I don't see Ford leaving any of that on the table. 30RWHP gain from a cat back exhaust on a NA engine only happens when there is a serious restriction. Like pipe 2 sizes too small or a collapsed muffler.

Also, in regards to your link about the CAI. Why do people keep believing the claims of a open filter CAI with the hood up. The intake can draw as much ambient air as it damn well pleases in that configuration. The only way to properly test a CAI is at the track or on the dyno with a high speed fan and the hood closed.

In regards to your comment about the CAI, JTL explains in this thread (http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/show...ed-4133p3.html) on why testing with the hood open is the best way to do it. I dont know if its this way on the Camaro, but the mustang has ducting that allows air into the intake while your driving. So they've recorded temps of only a few degrees over ambient while driving. So in order to make these temps match while the car is sitting on a dyno, you have to have the hood up and a fan going over it.

[BobDigi5060]

Like I said, that 2014 logic does not apply to the 15' Mustang. Boss 302s, 11-14 GTs, whatever, it does not apply.

There will be more tests and dyno runs to back this up. The truth is the car is power levels are underrated.

As many of you know, a few days ago Mustang6G member cj428 took delivery of his Ingot Silver 2015 Mustang GT Premium with Performance Pack.

A day after, he promptly weighed his vehicle on a truck scale with 3/4 tank of gas. CJ's S550 is nearly fully equipped - the only option he did not select was 52S (Adaptive Cruise Control, Collision Mitigation and Rain Sensing Wipers) and a rear spoiler.

Now, just a few days later he is the first actual owner we have to dyno his 2015 Mustang GT. CJ did three runs on a calibrated Mustang Dyno at Fonse Performance on 93 octane pump gas, 150 miles on the odometer, 59-degree weather and ideal air conditions. He ran it in fourth gear (shown in third video) & fifth gear, reaching over 150mph in fifth gear.

His results for the three runs were:

Run 1: 399RWHP / 354 FT-LBS
Run 2: 406RWHP / 370 FT-LBS
Run 3: 412RWHP / 378 FT-LBS

CJ also did a four corner scale weigh-in with a full tank of gas:

Total: 3815 LBS
Front: 2052 LBS (53.7%)
Rear: 1763 LBS (46.2%)
Left Side: 1915 LBS (50.1%)
Right Side: 1900 LBS (49.9%)
Left Front: 1028 LBS
Right Front: 1024 LBS
Left Rear: 887 LBS
Right Rear: 876 LBS

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/show...tang-4326.html

[DivineStrike]

Being a mustang guy myself, i really don't trust those dyno results as it was also done on a mustang dyno which typically dyno's much less than a dynojet. The car just isn't trapping high enough to be making that kind of power. I guess we will see when that member takes his car to the strip though. Only chance those numbers are legit imo is if he's got a factory freak.

[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by khell86

In regards to your comment about the CAI, JTL explains in this thread (http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/show...ed-4133p3.html) on why testing with the hood open is the best way to do it. I dont know if its this way on the Camaro, but the mustang has ducting that allows air into the intake while your driving. So they've recorded temps of only a few degrees over ambient while driving. So in order to make these temps match while the car is sitting on a dyno, you have to have the hood up and a fan going over it.

Open filter CAI testing on a chassis dyno with the hood up is NOT valid JLT. You are in the business to sell CAI's so of course you would say otherwise. Marketing BS. Yes ambient temps might be close but your forgetting what happens in the staging lanes sitting still or red light. Heat soak and how much power you get in the first 60ft affects acceleration. Plus, the IAT sensor takes a split second to respond to new temps at speed. That split second is huge in racing. I guess if you want to say dyno recorded IAT temps with the hood up are the same as IAT temps recorded on the highway after a 10 minute drive then okay sure but what about the availible power when the car is sitting still at idle. If all people do is roll race then this might not be an issue or if you want to claim x amount of power only while moving at high speed then okay but otherwise I call BS on your claims. Why is it no one is able to back your RWHP claims up with track testing?????????? It's simple math at the track to see how much a mod helps yet your numbers don't add up.

One thing people need to understand is with the hood up on a open filter CAI the surface area of the filter is able to injest more CFM than with the hood down coming through the grill opening. In other words it will dyno higher than what it actually makes in the real world because it's able to injest as much CFM as the filter allows. Track test have completely disproved JLT's and others open filter dyno gains. If these hood up dyno gains were real then where is the advertised power gain going in the real world??.?

[2011shelby]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

Open filter CAI testing on a chassis dyno with the hood up is NOT valid JLT. You are in the business to sell CAI's so of course you would say otherwise. Marketing BS. Yes ambient temps might be close but your forgetting what happens in the staging lanes sitting still or red light. Heat soak and how much power you get in the first 60ft affects acceleration. Plus, the IAT sensor takes a split second to respond to new temps at speed. That split second is huge in racing. I guess if you want to say dyno recorded IAT temps with the hood up are the same as IAT temps recorded on the highway after a 10 minute drive then okay sure but what about the availible power when the car is sitting still at idle. If all people do is roll race then this might not be an issue or if you want to claim x amount of power only while moving at high speed then okay but otherwise I call BS on your claims. Why is it no one is able to back your RWHP claims up with track testing?????????? It's simple math at the track to see how much a mod helps yet your numbers don't add up.

One thing people need to understand is with the hood up on a open filter CAI the surface area of the filter is able to injest more CFM than with the hood down coming through the grill opening. In other words it will dyno higher than what it actually makes in the real world because it's able to injest as much CFM as the filter allows. Track test have completely disproved JLT's and others open filter dyno gains. If these hood up dyno gains were real then where is the advertised power gain going in the real world??.?

Exactly how much power are you thinking??
Heat soak could be an issue for a FI car, not so much for NA.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

I'm sorry but that would be a complete dick move by Ford. If a 2016 Mustang GT is made with 465 HP and cost the same as the 2015 then that is a pretty sh!tty thing to do to current owners. Plus, Ford knows that a 2016 Camaro SS will not have more than 460 HP so why hold back for one model year? It makes no sense. Another reason I don't buy the rumor that the Mustang will gain that much power for the 2016 MY is because they would have to re test everything for that much more power and re certify everything for the following year.

.

GM is guilty of that as well.

04 GTO LS1 350HP, 05 GTO LS2 400HP.

The SSR, the first two years had the 5.3 truck motor. at 300HP..next year had a LS2 at 390HP

07 Corvette had the LS2 at 400, and the 08 had the LS3 at 430

Yeah it does suck and I don't see why Ford would do it, but they do.

I also do not believe the claims of 30 HP from a axle back. I just don't.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by shaffe

GM is guilty of that as well.

04 GTO LS1 350HP, 05 GTO LS2 400HP.

The SSR, the first two years had the 5.3 truck motor. at 300HP..next year had a LS2 at 390HP

07 Corvette had the LS2 at 400, and the 08 had the LS3 at 430

Yeah it does suck and I don't see why Ford would do it, but they do.

I also do not believe the claims of 30 HP from a axle back. I just don't.

Not sure I follow your logic here. NO GM car had the LS2 before 2005. If they were going to launch the GTO in 2004, they were going to have to do it without the LS2. The C6 debuts in 2005 but the LS3 wasn't available until 2008. What are they supposed to do for 3 years, other than use the LS2? The question being discussed here is did Ford intentionally choke the 5.0 in order to play the numbers game when the LT1 appears in the 6th gen Camaro next year?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Not sure I follow your logic here. NO GM car had the LS2 before 2005. If they were going to launch the GTO in 2004, they were going to have to do it without the LS2. The C6 debuts in 2005 but the LS3 wasn't available until 2008. What are they supposed to do for 3 years, other than use the LS2? The question being discussed here is did Ford intentionally choke the 5.0 in order to play the numbers game when the LT1 appears in the 6th gen Camaro next year?

I was just going by Vader's post of how it would be shitty to current owners to buy the car this year then the next year its available with a better engine offering. I was simply stating that GM has done it as well. Had I bought an 04 GTO then the next year it has new engine making 50 more HP I would be pissed. Wasn't trying to say they did it intentionally but how it can sometimes suck for the consumer is what I was trying to say

Do I think Ford has more up its sleeve for 16 or beyond with the 5.0 yes, whether its wait and see what Camaro has or if it's not "ready" yet I do not know.

[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by 2011shelby

Exactly how much power are you thinking??
Heat soak could be an issue for a FI car, not so much for NA.

High IAT's will pull power on a NA car. The difference isn't as much as a FI car but if a CAI advertises 15RWHP and high IAT's from the design pull enough timing to retract 10RWHP then that's not a very good CAI. That's neither here nor there at what I'm getting at. My point is that JLT advertises power gains that can't be realized in the real world. It's not just them either. Almost all open filter CAI companies do it the same way. The stock air box is a enclosed system so it doesn't give a crap if the hood is up or down on a chassis dyno. It's getting it's air from the exact location either way and further more it benefits more if the car is actually moving or there is a high speed fan in front of it. An open filter CAI can ingest as much CFM as it wants with the hood up. In other words it's not a apples to apples comparison when they show the dyno gains and the gains are inflated because of it. If JLT or other CAI companies wanted to put the debate to bed all they would have to do is put a high speed fan in their dyno cell in front of the opening and do the runs with the hood closed. Why can't they do this when small shops have? It's because they know they wouldn't be getting the same RWHP gains and it would hurt their advertising.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I was just going by Vader's post of how it would be shitty to current owners to buy the car this year then the next year its available with a better engine offering. I was simply stating that GM has done it as well. Had I bought an 04 GTO then the next year it has new engine making 50 more HP I would be pissed. Wasn't trying to say they did it intentionally but how it can sometimes suck for the consumer is what I was trying to say

Do I think Ford has more up its sleeve for 16 or beyond with the 5.0 yes, whether its wait and see what Camaro has or if it's not "ready" yet I do not know.

The difference is the LS2 was not in production yet. They didn't purposely hold back the engine or the power because of a competing car that was coming out a year later. Furthermore the GTO got the same LS2 in the same year that the Vette got it. Normally a year goes by before the lesser models get the Vette engine. The LS1 had been in production since 1997 as well. It's not like GM has ever built a engine for one model year and then completely changed it for the next model year(post 1987). As far as the exhaust goes that would be a pretty crappy thing to do as well. It wasn't like GM put a LS2 in the GTO and purposely choked the exhaust for a low output so that they could increase the output a year later in response to competition. If that did happen there should be no "it's not ready yet" to it. That would be on purpose crapping all over previous model year owners.

[BobDigi5060]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

The difference is the LS2 was not in production yet. They didn't purposely hold back the engine or the power because of a competing car that was coming out a year later. Furthermore the GTO got the same LS2 in the same year that the Vette got it. Normally a year goes by before the lesser models get the Vette engine. The LS1 had been in production since 1997 as well. It's not like GM has ever built a engine for one model year and then completely changed it for the next model year(post 1987). As far as the exhaust goes that would be a pretty crappy thing to do as well. It wasn't like GM put a LS2 in the GTO and purposely choked the exhaust for a low output so that they could increase the output a year later in response to competition. If that did happen there should be no "it's not ready yet" to it. That would be on purpose crapping all over previous model year owners.

So why didn't the LS3 Camaro have the same output as an LS3 equipped Vette? If the GTO and the Vette having the same output is a talking point, why was this never one?

[BobDigi5060]

It's not 2016 yet, and we don't know what Ford is "holding back" or learning in R & D. My only guess is the next generation Mustang was better suited for the global market and IRS with a different exhaust system. Not to mention the updated powertrain for GT owners. I really don't know or care all that much, but I'd be damned if I were to sit here and nit pick Camaros and Challengers day in and day out.

Take the L99 and Camaro out your avatar and I'm not sure whether you bought a 2010 Mustang or not. How are you gonna rally us poor, wronged Ford folk and be slanted in the same breathe?