[garcmol]

Yes. The 302 currently is 444hp and the GT500 is 550. Plus the 130 lb torque deficit. The GT500 only beat the Boss by .5 seconds with 106 more ponies.

2013 the GT500 gets another 100 hp

So with that logic. "Yeah, not much if at all."

I don't know what other improvements Ford is making, but...... nah, I'll leave it at that.

[Ject]

Until they Build and release the 2013 GT500... there isn't much anyone can say about it.
They can make changes (good or bad) all the way up to beginning production day.

There is no Data for the 2013 GT500 as it isn't built yet.... soooo.. yeah..

[GT5Junkie]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

What I see is your desperation to prove to yourself what you want to believe while you ignore the hard data an independent source developed running the range of Mustangs, on the same track, on the same day with the same driver.

I'm not ignoring it at all. In fact, that hard data is CENTRAL to my point. The GT500 was faster then. The GT500 is improving even more. Yet you say it won't be any faster. So you're saying Ford spent all this money and the car isn't going to be any faster? That makes no sense. Are you really that much smarter than everyone at Ford? I kinda doubt it.

Every time I talk SOLELY about the Mustangs, you run away from the reality of the data and hide behind a Mustang vs Camaro article. Nothing that a Camaro does or doesn't do changes the Mustang Data. It doesn't matter how loud you type or how often you type it. What I also see is your need to be here on a Camaro forum to puff your chest, to bluster and scream my dad can beat up your dad.

What I see you is you completely ignoring the facts. Why don't you actually respond to my points instead of making personal attacks?

Will the GT500 have superior tires to the BOSS LS -- Nope, no R compound tires.

Did the 2012 GT500 have superior tires when it beat it in the test you keep talking about? Nope.

No increase in tire contact patch. Not to worry, GT5Junkie sprinkled Magic Mustang Traction Dust on the yet to be built with no data available from any track 2013 GT500 and it will hold in the turn 50 MPH faster.

Did the GT500 have an increase in contact patch when it beat it in the test you keep talking about? Nope.

The BOSS LS uses a well engineered brace with a rear seat delete to triangulate the monocoque to improve suspension function. Not to worry, GT5Junkie sprinkled Magic Mustang Monocoque Dust on the yet to be built no data available from any track 2013 GT500 and it is as solid as titanium brick.

Did the GT500 have a well engineered brace when it beat the Boss in the test you keep talking about? Nope.

The harder you corner in a three link suspension the greater the lift on the inside rear wheel which limits traction and ability to apply power coming out of a turn. GT5Junkie sprinkled Magic Mustang Anti-Matter Dust to suspend the laws of motion and physics on the yet to be built no data available from any track time 2013 GT500 so no matter how fast you corner the inside rear wheel will not lift.

The 2013 GT500 doesn't need to suspend the laws of physics to beat the 2012 GT500. Your "argument" is ridiculous, and is what is called a "straw man" argument.

Does the 2013 GT500 have better brakes? Yes.
More aggressive suspension? Yes.
Better acceleration? Yes.
More downforce? Yes.

You take all those yesses, and then say "no, it won't be any faster than a 2012".

Again, does that argument make any sense at all?

The 2013 has better brakes and better acceleration. That ALONE will make it faster than the 2012.

If the suspension revisions that they ALSO made won't result in superior handling/cornering, then why did they make them? Your arguments literally make no sense whatsoever.

[The IOM Ninja]

Also the performance and track pack car's will have R Compound Tyres, just saying....

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/2013/

Click on the picture of the GT500 at the bottom....

[Ject]

GT5Junkie, Your arguments are not valid until the car is built and tested with data to back it. Everything you say is just assumptions....
Or as we like to call it Bench racing.

[garcmol]

Originally Posted by The IOM Ninja

Also the performance and track pack car's will have R Compound Tyres, just saying....

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/2013/

Click on the picture of the GT500 at the bottom....

And you pay extra for it......... just sayin'

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

It has nothing to do with the 2013 GT500 in one sense and everything to do with the 2013 GT500 in another.
.

I removed most of your quote to cut down on space, not to disregard it.

taken from the link in the above post:

"SVT Performance Package - 3.31 axle with TORSEN differential, unique wheels, R-Compound tires, SVT Engineered Bilstein ****pit-selectable dampers, unique front and rear springs, unique front and rear stabilizer bars, unique shift knob"

Maybe this means the SVT package will give you the Corsa's from the Boss LS? Like I've said before, I don't think we have nearly all the details on the '13 gt500 yet. It looks to me like the cross-brace in the laguna seca isn't really restricting the car from having a seat. Is there any reason they couldn't have a seat there? Is there any other means of bracing to a similar affect? They keep mentioning all-new chassis tuning without much detail. I just can't imagine SVT engineers would miss that if it's that easy and important with no plausible drawbacks while spending thousands on adjustable bilsteins and everything else. Ford just mentioned in a press release that the 2013 gt500 convertible is about 3.5 seconds faster than the 2012 at sebring international raceway.

http://www.insideline.com/ford/shelb...auto-show.html

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

I'm not ignoring it at all. In fact, that hard data is CENTRAL to my point. The GT500 was faster then. The GT500 is improving even more. Yet you say it won't be any faster. So you're saying Ford spent all this money and the car isn't going to be any faster? That makes no sense. Are you really that much smarter than everyone at Ford? I kinda doubt it.




What I see you is you completely ignoring the facts. Why don't you actually respond to my points instead of making personal attacks?



Did the 2012 GT500 have superior tires when it beat it in the test you keep talking about? Nope.



Did the GT500 have an increase in contact patch when it beat it in the test you keep talking about? Nope.



Did the GT500 have a well engineered brace when it beat the Boss in the test you keep talking about? Nope.



The 2013 GT500 doesn't need to suspend the laws of physics to beat the 2012 GT500. Your "argument" is ridiculous, and is what is called a "straw man" argument.

Does the 2013 GT500 have better brakes? Yes.
More aggressive suspension? Yes.
Better acceleration? Yes.
More downforce? Yes.

You talk all those yesses, and then say "no, it won't be any faster than a 2012".

Again, does that argument make any sense at all?

Better brakes don't brake better when you run out of tire. Minimal gain if any.

More aggressive suspension puts greater load on an already over worked tires. Minimal gain if any on one lap, it will get slower on each subsequent lap as the tires over heat and get greasy.

Better acceleration? Oh great, now we are going faster down the straight, have to brake harder on traction limited tires, find a way to stay smooth and composed in transistion and apply power going faster (theoretically speaking) though a turn on traction limited tires with the three link lifting the inside rear wheel harder, faster and higher with the increased speed. Minimal if any gain here.

More downforce? From what I have read, the down force increase is for extreme high speed stability and will be of minimal value on track. The BOSS LS has a front aero that is not street legal, but is highly effective on track. There is no hint that the BOSS LS aero will be available on the 2013 GT500. Minimal gain here.


No matter how much power, gearing or suspension Ford throws at the GT500, as long as it is a three link, the monocoque is unchanged and it runs on 285 street tires it will not be much faster than the last one. Let me make it really simple for you.

THE
MUSTANG
IS
TRACTION
LIMITED
BY
THE
THREE
LINK,
MONOCOQUE
FLEX
AND
TIRE
SIZE.

IT
CANNOT
GO
SIGNIFICANTLY
FASTER,
IF
AT
ALL,
ON
285S.

THE
MUSTANG
RUNS
OUT
OF
TIRE.

The van is waiting for you

[BATMAN!]

Lol! Some goofy shit.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by garcmol

And you pay extra for it......... just sayin'

Extra over what price is the question.

Justice, I think part of the problem lies in assumptions on both sides. I assume that when you talk about simple fixes with major impacts, especially ones Ford has already implemented in another car, that the SVT engineers would have considered this and either found another way or made the changes. They could have fit bigger meats on the car. They could fit a cross brace. With all the on-track testing they are doing and expensive upgrades, with the minor details we have there are assumptions being made on both sides of the table here.

[The IOM Ninja]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

I think it's very plausible the base GT500 will cost less than the zl1 and the track/performance packaged cars will float around the zl1 price give or take a bit. From an economic standpoint, Ford would have been a fool not to take a big profit margin on the gt500 when it had no real direct competition and dealerships were able to make, "market adjustments" and still sell the cars. Now that they have a direct competitor and the S197 platform has been around more than long enough to produce heavy profits, Ford can afford to take a loss, or a lesser profit, on their top-tier model. This is especially true when the Mustang isn't selling as well as it used to and Ford is posting huge profits elsewhere.

What people don't seem to realize is the Mustang was bringing in steady profit for a good 5 years before the Camaro came back and it's nearly a decade old style, Ford can for sure afford to make some price breaks on this car. Whether they will or not is yet to be determined.

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Better brakes don't brake better when you run out of tire. Minimal gain if any.

More aggressive suspension puts greater load on an already over worked tires. Minimal gain if any on one lap, it will get slower on each subsequent lap as the tires over heat and get greasy.

Better acceleration? Oh great, now we are going faster down the straight, have to brake harder on traction limited tires, find a way to stay smooth and composed in transistion and apply power going faster (theoretically speaking) though a turn on traction limited tires with the three link lifting the inside rear wheel harder, faster and higher with the increased speed. Minimal if any gain here.

More downforce? From what I have read, the down force increase is for extreme high speed stability and will be of minimal value on track. The BOSS LS has a front aero that is not street legal, but is highly effective on track. There is no hint that the BOSS LS aero will be available on the 2013 GT500. Minimal gain here.


No matter how much power, gearing or suspension Ford throws at the GT500, as long as it is a three link, the monocoque is unchanged and it runs on 285 street tires it will not be much faster than the last one. Let me make it really simple for you.

Actually I want to say thanks for this post (aside from the sarcasm at the end ), and breaking down what is going on through the turns. I actually learned something about the monocoque and how the 3-link lifts the inside rear on a turn.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Justice, I think part of the problem lies in assumptions on both sides. I assume that when you talk about simple fixes with major impacts, especially ones Ford has already implemented in another car, that the SVT engineers would have considered this and either found another way or made the changes. They could have fit bigger meats on the car. They could fit a cross brace. With all the on-track testing they are doing and expensive upgrades, with the minor details we have there are assumptions being made on both sides of the table here.

I don't know that I disagree with you. Clearly the Ford TEAM gets it with the BOSS LS. They know what to do and how to do it. So we all wait to see what the final product is when the 2013 GT500 is released.

[Mr Twisty]

Pete, I'm about to TAKE YOU TO SCHOOL on the Mustang chassis.......


Oh wait.... Justice Pete... aren't you the dude that has a Pedders chassis development Mustang?












..... nevermind