[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Because the Boss has IRS? Oh wait. . .


So what do you think would happen to current gt500 lap times if the new GT500 could equal the handling of the Boss, but have way more horsepower for the straights and better brakes?

His point about the gearing is not moot. Ford has stated that the torque at the wheels in at least first gear will be lower than it is on the current car. If torque at the wheels is less in lower gears, how will it increase traction problems when exiting a turn?

Good point about lacking an IRS...that's why it was so choppy and difficult to control...

If I can turn the point around....how will the way more horsepower be useful when exiting a turn, then, if the torque is measurably less?

And I have to question the sheer physics behind the concept of the comparably nose-heavy GT500 on street compound tires out-handling the Boss LS (which rides on R-compounds).

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Because the Boss has IRS? Oh wait. . .


So what do you think would happen to current gt500 lap times if the new GT500 could equal the handling of the Boss, but have way more horsepower for the straights and better brakes?

His point about the gearing is not moot. Ford has stated that the torque at the wheels in at least first gear will be lower than it is on the current car. If torque at the wheels is less in lower gears, how will it increase traction problems when exiting a turn?

Your questions and comments are point on and I will reply to them as soon as we clear up a few open items. Predicting what happens next is predicated on understanding what is happening now. We can't move forward with this discussion until these questions are answered .

1. Why does the BOSS LS perform so much better than the GT with only 40 more HP?

2. Why is the GT500 only .4% faster than the BOSS LS even though it has 25% more power?

Here is a hint -- The answer to question 1 is found in the BOSS GT equipment and I have already posted the answer to number 2 in this thread.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Good point about lacking an IRS...that's why it was so choppy and difficult to control...

If I can turn the point around....how will the way more horsepower be useful when exiting a turn, then, if the torque is measurably less?

And I have to question the sheer physics behind the concept of the comparably nose-heavy GT500 on street compound tires out-handling the Boss LS (which rides on R-compounds).

I think you may have misworded your first question. Do you mean to ask how it would be useful in the straights? My point was less peak torque in the lower gears is useful for the car when exiting a turn because the tires will be less overwhelmed. Higher horsepower will result in higher average force to the wheels unless they completely botched the upper gears, so the new one should be faster in the straights. I may have misunderstood your question though, let me know if I did.

Weight distribution on the current GT500 and Boss are very close. Since we don't know the weight distribution of the new GT500, it's hard to say it will be any worse than the Boss considering they are only 1% apart right now.

The 2012 Boss 302 has a 55/45 F/R weight distribution

The 2012 GT500 has a 56/44 F/R weight distribution.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Your questions and comments are point on and I will reply to them as soon as we clear up a few open items. Predicting what happens next is predicated on understanding what is happening now. We can't move forward with this discussion until these questions are answered .

1. Why does the BOSS LS perform so much better than the GT with only 40 more HP?

2. Why is the GT500 only .4% faster than the BOSS LS even though it has 25% more power?

Here is a hint -- The answer to question 1 is found in the BOSS GT equipment and I have already posted the answer to number 2 in this thread.

1. Because the horsepower is the least of the improvements to the boss.

2. Because the gt500 has an extra 200lbs, softer suspension, no sizable brake upgrade vs the boss, and gearing that makes the power nearly unusable at any low speeds without a high redline to take advantage of. I assume you are alluding to tire size as well. Though a bigger tire would help greatly, it's not the only way to improve lap times.

I don't see how this proves anything about the NEW gt500. Because it has more power doesn't mean power is the only upgrade they made. They didn't just slap a new drivetrain in there and call it quits. They also didn't just toss some electronic dampers in the suspension and call it quits.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

I think you may have misworded your first question. Do you mean to ask how it would be useful in the straights? My point was less peak torque in the lower gears is useful for the car when exiting a turn because the tires will be less overwhelmed. Higher horsepower will result in higher average force to the wheels unless they completely botched the upper gears, so the new one should be faster in the straights. I may have misunderstood your question though, let me know if I did.

I was referring to exiting the corners only. A few things to establish before I clarify my point:

1) GT500 rides on same width tires as Boss LS
2) GT500 uses less-sticky tires than Boss LS
2) Nearly all of the added weight to the GT500 rides over the nose. (Thank you for the f/r numbers, I didn't have them handy)

Even if they were able to gear down the torque of the engine down to the same as the Boss (I think it's still higher, though) - the tires will still give before the Boss...which means the GT500 will never be able to stick as long or as hard as the Boss. Add to this an increase in unfavorable weight-balance, and higher center of gravity...all signs point to impossible where out-handling the Boss is concerned.

On the straights...the power can help...but then it's been established that power has much less influence on road-course times than we'd like...

[Chevrole+]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

On the straights...the power can help...but then it's been established that power has much less influence on road-course times than we'd like...

indeed. it may help in a straight line, but it doesnt make up for the momentum lost to traction around the turns!

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I was referring to exiting the corners only. A few things to establish before I clarify my point:

1) GT500 rides on same width tires as Boss LS
2) GT500 uses less-sticky tires than Boss LS
2) Nearly all of the added weight to the GT500 rides over the nose. (Thank you for the f/r numbers, I didn't have them handy)

Even if they were able to gear down the torque of the engine down to the same as the Boss (I think it's still higher, though) - the tires will still give before the Boss...which means the GT500 will never be able to stick as long or as hard as the Boss. Add to this an increase in unfavorable weight-balance, and higher center of gravity...all signs point to impossible where out-handling the Boss is concerned.

On the straights...the power can help...but then it's been established that power has much less influence on road-course times than we'd like...

Oh, I see where the confusion is. I was talking in terms of the current gt500. Less peak torque at the tire (vs the '12 gt500) in a given gear on the same tires will result in easier corner exits. Although, the new gt500 is on G2s. Where we disagree is the increase in power. The gt500 is only slightly faster than the boss ls because it handles WORSE and brakes WORSE than the boss ls. The power is the only thing making it faster.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Oh, I see where the confusion is. I was talking in terms of the current gt500. Less peak torque at the tire (vs the '12 gt500) in a given gear on the same tires will result in easier corner exits. Although, the new gt500 is on G2s. Where we disagree is the increase in power. The gt500 is only slightly faster than the boss ls because it handles WORSE and brakes WORSE than the boss ls. The power is the only thing making it faster.

Agreed. And that doesn't appear to be an easy fix given the inherent limitations in the GT500 setup. That's the point I'm trying to raise.

(iirc, the '12 GT500 rides on F1 G:2's as well when equipped with SVT package)

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Agreed. And that doesn't appear to be an easy fix given the inherent limitations in the GT500 setup. That's the point I'm trying to raise.

(iirc, the '12 GT500 rides on F1 G:2's as well when equipped with SVT package)

You may be right about the tires, I'm not sure.

[ffrcobra_65]

Another bench racing thread. Yippee! Gimme a break.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

1. Because the horsepower is the least of the improvements to the boss.

2. Because the gt500 has an extra 200lbs, softer suspension, no sizable brake upgrade vs the boss, and gearing that makes the power nearly unusable at any low speeds without a high redline to take advantage of. I assume you are alluding to tire size as well. Though a bigger tire would help greatly, it's not the only way to improve lap times.

I don't see how this proves anything about the NEW gt500. Because it has more power doesn't mean power is the only upgrade they made. They didn't just slap a new drivetrain in there and call it quits. They also didn't just toss some electronic dampers in the suspension and call it quits.

It has nothing to do with the 2013 GT500 in one sense and everything to do with the 2013 GT500 in another.

The BOSS LS has a rear seat delete and a large cross brace installed to triangulate the monocoque.



This improvement to the monocoque allows the three link to work better. That is critical in the current Mustang. We achieved a similar result with a hoop and cross bar. R compound tires add more grip. A lot more grip. The 40 extra HP has a minimal impact on the lap time.

When you look at the time differences weight plays a factor, but the real issue traction. The BOSS LS picks up a little more than 2 seconds with improved grip. If you watch the Inside Line video of the BOSS LS it is controlled smooth and composed coming out of the turns. The GT500 dives into the turns with a bit more speed off the straight and struggles to stay composed coming out of the turn because it does not have the same grip as the BOSS LS. Put another way, the GT500 is very close to maxing out the available traction. Without a brace and without the R compound tires there is little left in the car.

The new GT500 should be able to go a bit faster on the straight with the additional power, improved torque curve and gearing. Now it has to stop better and be able to carry more momentum, more speed through the turn and it has to do it on the same size street tire that we saw maxed out by the old GT500 on the Inside Line video.

The challenge for the Ford engineers is to strengthen the monocoque to allow the suspension to deliver more traction, improve on the BOSS LS damper map to reduce lift and dive while increasing traction, find a way to program the Advance track to improve traction and not eat the rear brakes, and find R compound like traction out of a 285 rear tire. This is not news to Ford. They have I don't know how many engineers working on this equation and most are smarter than I am.

I don't understand why Ford adds power and does not increase tire size. That makes no sense to me at all. The last time I made this statement it caused a lot of turmoil. I don't see the added power making the 2013 GT500 much faster. The new motor is very well done. It is a power house. If I were in charge of the Ford Mustang program I would have spent my R & D on development of better front and rear chassis stiffeners, wider wheels and tires, improved front rear control arm bush to reduce lift and dive and started Ford on an MRC suspension program. They may not be as sexy as 650 HP, but I think they would have had more impact on the road course while delivering a better driving experience every time the owner turns the key. The GT500 is will be a great addition to the Mustang line up. The biggest challenges are flex in the monocoque, traction with 285s and a three link geometry limitations. From what I have read, I don't think Ford has done enough with these.

Some of what I have posted is not subject to debate. It is what it and cannot be anything but that. What I have posted is part data, part evaluation of the data, part data we developed on our Mustang, part years of experience and part opinion formed on how we at Pedders address suspension. Does it prove anything about how the 2013 GT500 will behave on track when released? No, to the extent I don't know everything Ford has done to make the 2013 GT500 a better Mustang. It does raise the issues that Ford I am certain Ford is working right now. I would hope it also fosters a more pragmatic discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of both the Mustang and Camaro and less mine is better than yours.

[eolson]

JusticePete, I could not agree more. A month back I posted the same opinion about the GT500. With the improvements SVT made to the 2011 and 20012 GT500 concerning the engine, engine weight, why not put all that money they put into the new 650HP engine development, and spend it on the chassis, suspension, brakes, and more weight loss.

550 Horses put down properly on a lighter better handling car would have been more than enough. We know truthfully though, that all of us road course and handling fans that love our Mustangs are slaves to the Drag Racing crowd, and Ford has put off suspension technological improvements for years to please the straight line fans of the car. I could only hope that they have solved the real issues of the 3 link solution as you have mentioned, but I doubt it.

We would have heard of a "monocoque" improvement by now I would think if it had been a vast improvement. Erik

[GT5Junkie]

Originally Posted by eolson

JusticePete, I could not agree more. A month back I posted the same opinion about the GT500. With the improvements SVT made to the 2011 and 20012 GT500 concerning the engine, engine weight, why not put all that money they put into the new 650HP engine development, and spend it on the chassis, suspension, brakes, and more weight loss.

550 Horses put down properly on a lighter better handling car would have been more than enough. We know truthfully though, that all of us road course and handling fans that love our Mustangs are slaves to the Drag Racing crowd, and Ford has put off suspension technological improvements for years to please the straight line fans of the car. I could only hope that they have solved the real issues of the 3 link solution as you have mentioned, but I doubt it.

We would have heard of a "monocoque" improvement by now I would think if it had been a vast improvement. Erik

Because there's a limit to what they can do with the current chassis, and considering it is extremely likely there will be an all new (or at least mostly new) chassis for the 2015 model year, it doesn't make sense to spend a huge amount of money on the outgoing chassis. And I doubt it really cost them much to increase the power output. We're talking about an overbore and off the shelf components (TVS2300, Ford GT cams).

These are the facts, most of which guys like JusticePete like to ignore:

1. In the only head to head test, the 2012 GT500 beat the 2012 Boss. Yes, the GT500 doesn't brake or handle as well as the Boss. JUST LIKE the ZL1 wouldn't brake as well or handle as well as a Camaro that had the ZL1 suspension and brakes but a lighter non supercharged engine. If you want 550-650 supercharged horsepower you are going to pay a weight penalty, which (with identical brakes and suspension) is going to translate into a braking and handling penalty. That is a fact, and is the same for both the Camaro and the Mustang.

2. The 2013 makes more power, but puts around the same amount of torque to the ground. This means better overall acceleration without increased traction issues, because you can hold gears longer and avoid as many up and downshifts.

3. The 2013 has better brakes, one of the reasons the 2012 GT500 isn't more faster than the Boss.

4. The 2013 has more aggressive suspension, another reason the 2012 GT500 isn't more faster than the boss.

5. The 2013 has improved downforce, yet another reason its performance will be increased vs. the Boss (and vs. the 2012 GT500).

6. The 2013 has a torsen LS, yet another reason its performance will be increased vs. the 2012 GT500.

7. The 2013 has improved engine, supercharger, transmission, and differential cooling, yet another reason road course performance will be improved vs. the 2012 GT500.

Does JusticePete think the 2013 GT500 will be faster than a 2012 GT500 on a road course? Here's what he says, direct cut and paste: "not much if at all."

Does anyone really think that is a reasonable conclusion, based on the points I have outlined above?

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

Because there's a limit to what they can do with the current chassis, and considering it is extremely likely there will be an all new (or at least mostly new) chassis for the 2015 model year, it doesn't make sense to spend a huge amount of money on the outgoing chassis. And I doubt it really cost them much to increase the power output. We're talking about an overbore and off the shelf components (TVS2300, Ford GT cams).

These are the facts, most of which guys like JusticePete like to ignore:

1. In the only head to head test, the 2012 GT500 beat the 2012 Boss. Yes, the GT500 doesn't brake or handle as well as the Boss. JUST LIKE the ZL1 wouldn't brake as well or handle as well as a Camaro that had the ZL1 suspension and brakes but a lighter non supercharged engine. If you want 550-650 supercharged horsepower you are going to pay a weight penalty, which (with identical brakes and suspension) is going to translate into a braking and handling penalty. That is a fact, and is the same for both the Camaro and the Mustang.

2. The 2013 makes more power, but puts around the same amount of torque to the ground. This means better overall acceleration without increased traction issues, because you can hold gears longer and avoid as many up and downshifts.

3. The 2013 has better brakes, one of the reasons the 2012 GT500 isn't more faster than the Boss.

4. The 2013 has more aggressive suspension, another reason the 2012 GT500 isn't more faster than the boss.

5. The 2013 has improved downforce, yet another reason its performance will be increased vs. the Boss (and vs. the 2012 GT500).

6. The 2013 has a torsen LS, yet another reason its performance will be increased vs. the 2012 GT500.

7. The 2013 has improved engine, supercharger, transmission, and differential cooling, yet another reason road course performance will be improved vs. the 2012 GT500.

Does JusticePete think the 2013 GT500 will be faster than a 2012 GT500 on a road course? Here's what he says, direct cut and paste: "not much if at all."

Does anyone really think that is a reasonable conclusion, based on the points I have outlined above?

What I see is your desperation to prove to yourself what you want to believe while you ignore the hard data an independent source developed running the range of Mustangs, on the same track, on the same day with the same driver. Every time I talk SOLELY about the Mustangs, you run away from the reality of the data and hide behind a Mustang vs Camaro article. Nothing that a Camaro does or doesn't do changes the Mustang Data. It doesn't matter how loud you type or how often you type it. What I also see is your need to be here on a Camaro forum to puff your chest, to bluster and scream my dad can beat up your dad.

Will the GT500 have superior tires to the BOSS LS -- Nope, no R compound tires. No increase in tire contact patch. Not to worry, GT5Junkie sprinkled Magic Mustang Traction Dust on the yet to be built with no data available from any track 2013 GT500 and it will hold in the turn 50 MPH faster.

The BOSS LS uses a well engineered brace with a rear seat delete to triangulate the monocoque to improve suspension function. Not to worry, GT5Junkie sprinkled Magic Mustang Monocoque Dust on the yet to be built no data available from any track 2013 GT500 and it is as solid as titanium brick.

The harder you corner in a three link suspension the greater the lift on the inside rear wheel which limits traction and ability to apply power coming out of a turn. GT5Junkie sprinkled Magic Mustang Anti-Matter Dust to suspend the laws of motion and physics on the yet to be built no data available from any track time 2013 GT500 so no matter how fast you corner the inside rear wheel will not lift.

We all know that you are a huge fan of the Mustang and the yet to be built 2013 GT500. That's cool. We don't mind. I am looking forward to my first 2013 GT500 drive On the other hand, do you really think you are going to come to Camaro5 to prove yours is bigger than ours? You must have inhaled too much Magic Mustang Dust. The nice men in their white coats are here to take you home to a nice safe Mustang forum where they will all love you.

Bye GT5Junkie. You were right all along. Enjoy your ride home We hope to see you soon