[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Ok, thanks. Radius rods are the arms the brake cooling deflectors mount to are and the ones that leak? The "real" LCAs are spherical on the inside and ball joints on the outside?

I've been thinking I should just get the ZLE FEA arms and do it preemptively...

Yes, the brake deflectors attach to the radius rod and the other front LCAs have the spherical. Knowing I would be using SC3Rs for the track, swapping in the ZLE radius rods was one of my first mods. Not sure where the term radius rod came to be, but it was used with Gen5's similar front suspension design.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by Rapid_blue_zl1_22

Is anyone running YYZ springs on track? I am curious if there is anything negative to installing them. Ride height is a bit high for my taste, and I want to install my Vorshlag camber plates anyway.

I'm happy with the stock ride height as a compromise between street and track use. If you do lower it, be sure to have a dealership or someone with the appropriate scan tool do a trim height relearn so the MagRide suspension is aware of the new ride height or else many people have complained that lowering the car made it handle/feel worse with the stock calibration. I've read on here that you can buy your own relatively inexpensive scan tool to DIY like this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09XV8VR35

Also the stock ride height allows you to straddle certain higher curbs without scraping or damaging anything. Many lower track cars can't straddle these resulting in lap times that are several tenths faster with the stock ride height thanks to a wider corner radius where you can carry more minimum speed. COTA turn 19 yellow apex curb comes to mind. But you should also theoretically see lap time improvement from a lower center of gravity after installing lowering springs...idk how much or if there's a way to calculate that.

[cdb95z28]

In addition to the ride height sensor reset, another important thing to do when changing your ride height is to "time" your rubber suspension bushings. This is often overlooked if you care about optimizing the suspension.

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153188


There are some suspension joints on our cars that do not need this attention as they are spherical joints, but there is the front radius rod and a few rear suspension joints that need timed. Unfortunately the anti roll bar mounts on our cars use rubber mounting bushings that also play a part in optimizing the suspension. While the rear bar could be re-timed, the FE4/FEA (AFAIK) front bar mounts are actually glued to the bar and will not be able to be timed. Without this, the front bar will have lots of preload in it.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

But you should also theoretically see lap time improvement from a lower center of gravity after installing lowering springs...idk how much or if there's a way to calculate that.

That much is true...as far as it goes. However, it's not that simple. Lowering the car also changes the suspension geometry, especially the roll center (or the lateral antis and pros if you want to speak in the more accurate force-based roll center perspective), the alignment range and camber curves, the bump steer, the aero performance/balance, and probably some other things I'm not thinking about. Usually the net effect is an improvement in grip, so I'm not saying you're wrong. Just saying it's difficult to model all the changes well enough to predict the exact outcome.

[Rapid_blue_zl1_22]

Just wanted to give everyone an update if you are considering the swap. Now that I have had the car for a while and done a about 5 track days, there are a few things I like/dislike on track.

Pros: I can get back on throttle way sooner in the SS VS the ZL1. I can feel the weight difference and the car just feels more agile. My consumable costs are drastically reduced. No heat soak issues. Overall I feel like the car has helped me improve as a driver.

Cons: The brakes were lacking compared to my ZL1, especially since I had track pads (on the ZL1) and I warped the rotors (on SS) on my second track day. The brakes were still very good, but not as good as ZL1.

I did a few mods and it took the car from an 8.5 to a 9.5 out of 10. I put my ZL1 1LE wheels/ tires (SC3R's) on, installed Vorshlag camber plates, installed SPL Toe/camber arms with lockout, and got a track alignment. This dropped me down to a 1:44.31 (1:45.17 100% stock. My best ZL1 time was a 1:44.01)

This was the time that my brakes started to feel lacking compared to the ZL1. I warped the rotors, so I was considering getting new rotors and track pads. I still had my ZL1 track pads and a pair of rotors, so I just said F it and bought some low mileage ZL1 1LE Calipers. After installing the ZL1 brakes I was so much more confident going into corners and was able to drop my time down to a 1:42.38 and absolutely crush my ZL1 PB. I gained 24 lbs total with the brake swap, 16 lbs being rotating mass, but 100% worth it. I offset it by adding an Antigravity battery.

I couldn't possibly be happier with my decision to "downgrade". 300 less WHP, no aero, and the car is faster.

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Rapid_blue_zl1_22

Just wanted to give everyone an update if you are considering the swap. Now that I have had the car for a while and done a about 5 track days, there are a few things I like/dislike on track.

Pros: I can get back on throttle way sooner in the SS VS the ZL1. I can feel the weight difference and the car just feels more agile. My consumable costs are drastically reduced. No heat soak issues. Overall I feel like the car has helped me improve as a driver.

Cons: The brakes were lacking compared to my ZL1, especially since I had track pads (on the ZL1) and I warped the rotors (on SS) on my second track day. The brakes were still very good, but not as good as ZL1.

I did a few mods and it took the car from an 8.5 to a 9.5 out of 10. I put my ZL1 1LE wheels/ tires (SC3R's) on, installed Vorshlag camber plates, installed SPL Toe/camber arms with lockout, and got a track alignment. This dropped me down to a 1:44.31 (1:45.17 100% stock. My best ZL1 time was a 1:44.01)

This was the time that my brakes started to feel lacking compared to the ZL1. I warped the rotors, so I was considering getting new rotors and track pads. I still had my ZL1 track pads and a pair of rotors, so I just said F it and bought some low mileage ZL1 1LE Calipers. After installing the ZL1 brakes I was so much more confident going into corners and was able to drop my time down to a 1:42.38 and absolutely crush my ZL1 PB. I gained 24 lbs total with the brake swap, 16 lbs being rotating mass, but 100% worth it. I offset it by adding an Antigravity battery.

I couldn't possibly be happier with my decision to "downgrade". 300 less WHP, no aero, and the car is faster.

Sub 1:50 is a great time on MSR. I hope to get back out there very soon. Hope to see you there.

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by Rapid_blue_zl1_22

Just wanted to give everyone an update if you are considering the swap. Now that I have had the car for a while and done a about 5 track days, there are a few things I like/dislike on track.

Pros: I can get back on throttle way sooner in the SS VS the ZL1. I can feel the weight difference and the car just feels more agile. My consumable costs are drastically reduced. No heat soak issues. Overall I feel like the car has helped me improve as a driver.

Cons: The brakes were lacking compared to my ZL1, especially since I had track pads (on the ZL1) and I warped the rotors (on SS) on my second track day. The brakes were still very good, but not as good as ZL1.

I did a few mods and it took the car from an 8.5 to a 9.5 out of 10. I put my ZL1 1LE wheels/ tires (SC3R's) on, installed Vorshlag camber plates, installed SPL Toe/camber arms with lockout, and got a track alignment. This dropped me down to a 1:44.31 (1:45.17 100% stock. My best ZL1 time was a 1:44.01)

This was the time that my brakes started to feel lacking compared to the ZL1. I warped the rotors, so I was considering getting new rotors and track pads. I still had my ZL1 track pads and a pair of rotors, so I just said F it and bought some low mileage ZL1 1LE Calipers. After installing the ZL1 brakes I was so much more confident going into corners and was able to drop my time down to a 1:42.38 and absolutely crush my ZL1 PB. I gained 24 lbs total with the brake swap, 16 lbs being rotating mass, but 100% worth it. I offset it by adding an Antigravity battery.

I couldn't possibly be happier with my decision to "downgrade". 300 less WHP, no aero, and the car is faster.

YES! No doubt, the SS 1LE is the perfect sweet spot of the Gen6. Especially if one tracks. Lower buy in, lower insurance, lower track insurance, less maintenance and consumables. Less relying on power for lap times, makes you optimize corners and braking. The SS 1LE feels more nimble vs the regular ZL1. That weigh penalty of the regular ZL1 does go away with a ZLE with better weight control. To be completely honest though, if I could afford one and have it a more dedicated track car, I would love to have a ZLE. The ultimate Gen6 track weapon. But, I have buddies who "moved up" to a regular ZL1 from the SS 1LE and are not completely sold on the move. 200 more HP can be intoxicating but I personally value chassis dynamics more than brute power.

I couldn't see in the pics but are you running the CTSV BlackWing brake deflectors? They will push a little more air to the front brakes. The ZL1 brakes on an SS 1LE is a great upgrade, especially on certain tracks and with increased driver skill.

To go further on an SS 1LE, with track dynamics in mind, adding the ZLE rear solid cradle mounts is worthwhile. I did solid mounts on my Gen5 SS 1LE and it was a massive change. Before I even ordered my current '22 SS 1LE I found a set of ZLE mounts here on the forums. While not as massive of a change as it was on my Gen5, it did improve the feel of the rear at max corner loading. Do the solids vs the inserts. I did bigger anti roll bars too, Hotchkis/BMR with adjustable SPL endlinks.
Helps manage the chassis tendency to roll a little more due to the increased 3R grip. The ZLE front (diagonal) radius rod is a definite upgrade due to the oil filled OE SS 1LE bushing giving up over time when running the 3R or greater. I run 305/30-19 3R squared with the above mods.

[Rapid_blue_zl1_22]

Originally Posted by mlee

Sub 1:50 is a great time on MSR. I hope to get back out there very soon. Hope to see you there.

I am a member, so let me know when you want to go and we'll make it happen. The 1:42 and 43 laps that I did was on a "sticker set" of SC3R's. I consistently do 1:44-45 on 3R's normally (depending on age)

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

YES! No doubt, the SS 1LE is the perfect sweet spot of the Gen6. Especially if one tracks. Lower buy in, lower insurance, lower track insurance, less maintenance and consumables. Less relying on power for lap times, makes you optimize corners and braking. The SS 1LE feels more nimble vs the regular ZL1. That weigh penalty of the regular ZL1 does go away with a ZLE with better weight control. To be completely honest though, if I could afford one and have it a more dedicated track car, I would love to have a ZLE. The ultimate Gen6 track weapon. But, I have buddies who "moved up" to a regular ZL1 from the SS 1LE and are not completely sold on the move. 200 more HP can be intoxicating but I personally value chassis dynamics more than brute power.

I couldn't see in the pics but are you running the CTSV BlackWing brake deflectors? They will push a little more air to the front brakes. The ZL1 brakes on an SS 1LE is a great upgrade, especially on certain tracks and with increased driver skill.

To go further on an SS 1LE, with track dynamics in mind, adding the ZLE rear solid cradle mounts is worthwhile. I did solid mounts on my Gen5 SS 1LE and it was a massive change. Before I even ordered my current '22 SS 1LE I found a set of ZLE mounts here on the forums. While not as massive of a change as it was on my Gen5, it did improve the feel of the rear at max corner loading. Do the solids vs the inserts. I did bigger anti roll bars too, Hotchkis/BMR with adjustable SPL endlinks.
Helps manage the chassis tendency to roll a little more due to the increased 3R grip. The ZLE front (diagonal) radius rod is a definite upgrade due to the oil filled OE SS 1LE bushing giving up over time when running the 3R or greater. I run 305/30-19 3R squared with the above mods.

At the end of the day the ZL1 doesn't even make the 200hp more. the supercharger uses 75 ish hp to spin it, and after 2-3 laps you are down another 50+ hp due to heat soak. With the 200 lb weight difference between the two cars, it really closes the gap more than you would think. Then the SS also has better gearing 1-3 and the same 4th. The ZL1 has its place on higher top speed tracks, but on my "home track" the SS 1LE is a way better car. I do agree the ZL1 1LE would've been a different story, but how much of that could be gained by just adding the DSSV's to an SS 1LE (or MCS coilovers)?

I do have the BW brake ducts front and rear and Ferodo 1.11 pads.

The car is still new to me, so I do have a few more mods in mind. The solid cradle bushings, radius arms, and anti roll bars are definitely on the list.

[speedyink1]

Originally Posted by Rapid_blue_zl1_22

I am a member, so let me know when you want to go and we'll make it happen. The 1:42 and 43 laps that I did was on a "sticker set" of SC3R's. I consistently do 1:44-45 on 3R's normally (depending on age)



At the end of the day the ZL1 doesn't even make the 200hp more. the supercharger uses 75 ish hp to spin it, and after 2-3 laps you are down another 50+ hp due to heat soak. With the 200 lb weight difference between the two cars, it really closes the gap more than you would think. Then the SS also has better gearing 1-3 and the same 4th. The ZL1 has its place on higher top speed tracks, but on my "home track" the SS 1LE is a way better car. I do agree the ZL1 1LE would've been a different story, but how much of that could be gained by just adding the DSSV's to an SS 1LE (or MCS coilovers)?

I do have the BW brake ducts front and rear and Ferodo 1.11 pads.

The car is still new to me, so I do have a few more mods in mind. The solid cradle bushings, radius arms, and anti roll bars are definitely on the list.

There's different gearing between the SS and ZL1? I knew the ZL1 1LE has its own unique gearing, but didn't realize there was a difference between the SS/1LE and the regular ZL1.

[Rapid_blue_zl1_22]

Originally Posted by speedyink1

There's different gearing between the SS and ZL1? I knew the ZL1 1LE has its own unique gearing, but didn't realize there was a difference between the SS/1LE and the regular ZL1.

Yes sir! 1-3 are shorter, 4th is the same, and 5-6 are longer.
This makes the SS not as good on higher speed tracks, but awesome on 1-4 gear tracks. I never get out of 4th at MSR Houston. Here is the gearing chart:

[nikerret]

Wow. I didn’t realize how close the SS1LE and ZL1 were on some tracks - SS1LE being faster really blows my mind. The BCD brakes on my SS1LE is my favorite feature of my car.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by Rapid_blue_zl1_22

Just wanted to give everyone an update if you are considering the swap. Now that I have had the car for a while and done a about 5 track days, there are a few things I like/dislike on track.

Pros: I can get back on throttle way sooner in the SS VS the ZL1. I can feel the weight difference and the car just feels more agile. My consumable costs are drastically reduced. No heat soak issues. Overall I feel like the car has helped me improve as a driver.

Cons: The brakes were lacking compared to my ZL1, especially since I had track pads (on the ZL1) and I warped the rotors (on SS) on my second track day. The brakes were still very good, but not as good as ZL1.

I did a few mods and it took the car from an 8.5 to a 9.5 out of 10. I put my ZL1 1LE wheels/ tires (SC3R's) on, installed Vorshlag camber plates, installed SPL Toe/camber arms with lockout, and got a track alignment. This dropped me down to a 1:44.31 (1:45.17 100% stock. My best ZL1 time was a 1:44.01)

This was the time that my brakes started to feel lacking compared to the ZL1. I warped the rotors, so I was considering getting new rotors and track pads. I still had my ZL1 track pads and a pair of rotors, so I just said F it and bought some low mileage ZL1 1LE Calipers. After installing the ZL1 brakes I was so much more confident going into corners and was able to drop my time down to a 1:42.38 and absolutely crush my ZL1 PB. I gained 24 lbs total with the brake swap, 16 lbs being rotating mass, but 100% worth it. I offset it by adding an Antigravity battery.

I couldn't possibly be happier with my decision to "downgrade". 300 less WHP, no aero, and the car is faster.

Thanks for sharing your experience! It is cool to read about a track comparison between the two cars having never driven a ZL1 myself.

MSR Houston is my home track too. I haven't driven it in a little over a year but I'm signed up for the NASA event on 4/12-13 if you want to stop by and chat after the track goes cold one of those days. I could also take you out as a passenger too if you want but my CCW lap times in the past have been slower than CW so far.

My personal best at MSR Houston CW in my manual SS 1LE with 3Rs on ZLE wheels is 1:42.17 from a few years back on a cool day with stock brakes. (I don't recommend stock pads for 3Rs...I could smell them overheating and was doing cool down laps because of that. I still had the stock ABS module (EBCM) which was holding me back because I had to brake earlier (and lighter initially) to avoid "ice mode" sending me off into the grass. I figured a 1:40.9 was possible with perfect weather/driving and the 2019+ ABS module that I've installed since then on 3Rs after looking at PDR data/video in Cosworth Toolbox but I haven't had the chance to try yet; maybe this fall/winter on a cool day. Also the track felt more bumpy to me last year so it might not be possible to go that fast anymore.

It is interesting to read that 3Rs grip better when new as the grip is already excellent in my experience when used but I've only ever driven on takeoff sets that already had some street mileage on them.

I was going to upgrade to ZL1 brakes but changed my mind and just got track pads for the stock brakes in case I go to 18" wheels in the future to run takeoff slicks because the ZL1 caliper clearance is reportedly very small with 18s.

If you have PDR, we can exchange videos/data through private messages on here to compare our laps if you want!

These are the 220tw Supercar 3 PB laps I already have uploaded to YouTube. This was the only set of brand new tires I've ever bought for the car; I think it was the 3rd track heat cycle for these tires (plus a few hundred street miles) if I remember correctly:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=BMWuXcCWTl8


https://youtube.com/watch?v=UkHgdNJjUxw

[cdrptrks]

Here's a screenshot. I can upload the video if you want.

[Rapid_blue_zl1_22]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

Thanks for sharing your experience! It is cool to read about a track comparison between the two cars having never driven a ZL1 myself.

MSR Houston is my home track too. I haven't driven it in a little over a year but I'm signed up for the NASA event on 4/12-13 if you want to stop by and chat after the track goes cold one of those days. I could also take you out as a passenger too if you want but my CCW lap times in the past have been slower than CW so far.

My personal best at MSR Houston CW in my manual SS 1LE with 3Rs on ZLE wheels is 1:42.17 from a few years back on a cool day with stock brakes. (I don't recommend stock pads for 3Rs...I could smell them overheating and was doing cool down laps because of that. I still had the stock ABS module (EBCM) which was holding me back because I had to brake earlier (and lighter initially) to avoid "ice mode" sending me off into the grass. I figured a 1:40.9 was possible with perfect weather/driving and the 2019+ ABS module that I've installed since then on 3Rs after looking at PDR data/video in Cosworth Toolbox but I haven't had the chance to try yet; maybe this fall/winter on a cool day. Also the track felt more bumpy to me last year so it might not be possible to go that fast anymore.

It is interesting to read that 3Rs grip better when new as the grip is already excellent in my experience when used but I've only ever driven on takeoff sets that already had some street mileage on them.

I was going to upgrade to ZL1 brakes but changed my mind and just got track pads for the stock brakes in case I go to 18" wheels in the future to run takeoff slicks because the ZL1 caliper clearance is reportedly very small with 18s.

If you have PDR, we can exchange videos/data through private messages on here to compare our laps if you want!

These are the 220tw Supercar 3 PB laps I already have uploaded to YouTube. This was the only set of brand new tires I've ever bought for the car; I think it was the 3rd track heat cycle for these tires (plus a few hundred street miles) if I remember correctly:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=BMWuXcCWTl8

https://youtube.com/watch?v=UkHgdNJjUxw

I have actually already watched your videos several times. I am a member at MSR Houston, so if you ever want to come out, let me know. I would come out on the 12-13th, but I'm going camping with my family. I will probably be out there sometime next week if you are available. I will DM you my number

I have a few videos on YouTube as well, but only my first track day with the SS 1LE when it was 100% stock.

https://youtu.be/kuIxKmHUE-E?si=3NxMtXiPYp9Z3sAQ