[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Love your optimism, but the Camaro didn't die because of EVs. It died because it wasn't selling. Simple as that.

For GM to invest the amount it would take for an all new ICE Camaro that actually had broad appeal would not be a money making proposition.

Look at Mustang sales this year. Almost down to Corvette levels. Even the Mustang is dying. Coupes just aren't selling.

So, it has little to do with EV support or emissions/FE rules. GM won't go back into the segment unless it's a for sure money maker.

This. Guys if you have an ICE coupe you love or there’s one out there you want that’s within reason, buy it. Hold on to it and preserve it as best you can. It’s going to be hard to get nice examples of coupes, especially ICE coupes in the future. They cost too much, people aren’t buying them and manufacturers are dropping them from their line ups.

The Supra got brought back in 2020 and it’s getting dropped again in a couple years. I see the Nissan Z going away in the not too distant future. They don’t sell at all. Civic type R’s and GR Corolla’s will probably go away too with how little they sell of them plus their mid 40’s price tags which is insane for a hot hatch.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

This. Guys if you have an ICE coupe you love or there’s one out there you want that’s within reason, buy it. Hold on to it and preserve it as best you can. It’s going to be hard to get nice examples of coupes, especially ICE coupes in the future. They cost too much, people aren’t buying them and manufacturers are dropping them from their line ups.

The Supra got brought back in 2020 and it’s getting dropped again in a couple years. I see the Nissan Z going away in the not too distant future. They don’t sell at all. Civic type R’s and GR Corolla’s will probably go away too with how little they sell of them plus their mid 40’s price tags which is insane for a hot hatch.

Yep, with the current market and even in the last few years cars like the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger... are getting to be 1st car pricing not a 3rd car or 2nd car even. I am old and can do it, but the market for a 2 door limited space vehicle is 2nd or 3rd car space in the market. And at the priced these are commanding shuts the door for many buyers. Especially these day when you can get a 4 door or even an SUV that can hold their own and costs the same or less.

Not to mention EVs -ugh

[Gen6cyl]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Yup. Good one. There are some folks at Porsche and Lucid who would like to have a chat. Maybe fastest affordable EV. And even that is questionable, depending on how you define affordable.

https://youtu.be/UJ7KCrGlstI?si=5zJsQLpyJKNotRVX

I was referring to the nurburgring list on farmer Fran's post #244. As far as I could see the Ioniq N was the fastest ev.

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Originally Posted by Gen6cyl

I was referring to the nurburgring list on farmer Fran's post #244. As far as I could see the Ioniq N was the fastest ev.

Taycan Turbo is actually an EV...

-Geoff

[FlukeSS]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

Im confident the GT500 (last gen) would beat the ZLE no problem on the Nurburgring. Horsepower matters a ton on that track and it literally has a 100 more HP. It’s faster around VIR and Randy Pobst tested both cars the same day on an episode of throttle house. The GT500 was on cooked tires so it lost that day but Randy said he was positive on tires as fresh as the ZLE had the GT500 would be faster. It was 10 mph faster on the straight. He said. Since Randy said it’s the faster car I believe him. There’s a bunch of spots on the Nurburgring where that power would be put to use.

Now I want to point out I still think the ZLE is the better value. 77k versus 100k

In the end Randy still would choose the ZLE over the GT500.

https://youtu.be/1zx8-CBtXIs?si=McWFnhe00i64Rh6K&t=1558

And if you want lbs for lbs apples to apples comparison, throw FBO on the ZL1 at 730 or so hp and watch what it does to the GT500 where hp is no longer the deciding factor. And your priice list is post inflation values, back in 2018-2020 the ZLE's were going for less than that. I saw some priced at $50000 to $60000. Granted those were low milage used like sub 15k miles.

[JT6Speed]

Look at the market share in terms of cars vs. SUVs and pickup trucks. Then add coupes in there and you'll see it's an extremely small niche segment of mostly enthusiast cars.

IMO GM is not going to reinvest in an ICE Camaro, which totally aside from EV, was failing already. Honestly the RWD coupe is hanging on by a thread, and those available with a V8 and manual are about gone.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Gen6cyl

I was referring to the nurburgring list on farmer Fran's post #244. As far as I could see the Ioniq N was the fastest ev.

Originally Posted by SomeGeoffGuy

Taycan Turbo is actually an EV...

-Geoff

I could have been more clear but Geoff got what I was getting at. The Porsche Taycan has already put up better numbers and the Lucid Air Sapphire appears to outperform the Taycan on just about every measure. Ioniq N is in the Tesla Model 3 Performance range.

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I could have been more clear but Geoff got what I was getting at. The Porsche Taycan has already put up better numbers and the Lucid Air Sapphire appears to outperform the Taycan on just about every measure. Ioniq N is in the Tesla Model 3 Performance range.

Porsche should have their time pulled from the list just for having the word "Turbo" on an EV...

-Geoff

[Gen6cyl]

I didn't know you could turbo a ev😁

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Gen6cyl

I didn't know you could turbo a ev😁

You can do anything with German engineering.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by FlukeSS

In the end Randy still would choose the ZLE over the GT500.

https://youtu.be/1zx8-CBtXIs?si=McWFnhe00i64Rh6K&t=1558

And if you want lbs for lbs apples to apples comparison, throw FBO on the ZL1 at 730 or so hp and watch what it does to the GT500 where hp is no longer the deciding factor. And your priice list is post inflation values, back in 2018-2020 the ZLE's were going for less than that. I saw some priced at $50000 to $60000. Granted those were low milage used like sub 15k miles.

It is never apples to apples once you add mods. You’re comparing a modded car to a stock car. I was comparing the top Camaro to the top Mustang of the same generation how they came off the show room floor. It’s not fords fault that Chevy didn’t give the Camaro more power. I know people on these boards have complained about Chevy not giving the Camaro the LT5. They could have done that, raised the price to 95k and bam now you equal the field price wise and give the people what they want.

You’re right that the prices I listed were post inflation. I really thought a 2018 ZLE was like 76k but it was only 70 (BEFORE INCENTIVES which there were a ton because no one bought Camaro’s prepandemic). By the time the GT500 came out (2020) the ZLE was about 72-73k for a manual before any options. GT500’s with the CFTP were roughly 96k so about 20k savings.

Yes I remembered Randy picking the ZLE. Better value for the money and nicer chassis. Same reason I choose my SS 1LE over a similarly priced Mustang.

[DaveC113]

As mentioned hp makes a big difference on the ring and if ZLE was 800 hp I'd bet it'd keep up or beat the GTD and cost <$100k. GTD lap was good but the braking and cornering didn't seem all that impressive. It's an accomplishment, but it's also disappointing for a $350k car.

[Gen6cyl]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You can do anything with German engineering.

😆 I have always steered away from that.

[Gen6cyl]

In 2004 I got a 2002 Camaro v6 manual, low mileage for 12.5 k. Months later I drove a 2002 manual gt stang at a dealership. I would have never have believed how inferior as a driving machine ths stang was if I had not experienced it myself. The 3800 was better and stronger than the 4.6. The stang always sold more, I don't understand.