[N Camarolina]

PTM Sport 1 will not normally allow enough throttle to rotate the rear while exiting a corner. After watching your spin, my guess is that your rear tires weren't up to temp and you induced the spin by adding too much throttle while you still had a lot of steering angle. The proper way to accelerate out of a corner is to start adding throttle as you unwind the wheel (think of a string being attached from the steering wheel to the throttle). Had the tires been warmed more, the throttle limit allowed by PTM Sport 1 would have been low enough to prevent the rear tires from braking free, and at most the car would have started understeering.

Regarding your comment about thoughts that went through your mind when the back started to rotate, I know exactly what you mean. The first time I accidently induced oversteer, the fact that it happened shocked/surprised me (I was doing 90 going into T10 at VIR). But what was amazing was how everything slowed down and the number of rational thoughts I was able to act on in a total of 1 second:
1) Oh sh_t, the rear is rotating and I need to catch it - need to add counter steer!
2)Hmmmm, that first amount of opposite lock doesn't appear to have been enough to stop the rotation
3) If I don't fix this we are going to head to the left and into the tire wall at a high rate of speed = car will be toast
4) To the right is the nice open field = that's much better
5) If I dial in a lot more counter-steer (excessive) and do it quick, I can get the car to over correct and head to the right.
6) It's working, I'm heading off to the right. Now just straighten it out as we head into the grass so that we don't roll it over.

Here's the video of that moment. Fast forward to 3:17 and watch those thoughts when you see the steering angle changes.

[cdrptrks]

You're welcome. If there is no elevation change near where you spin out and stop on track, people should be able to see you and change their line if needed to go around you (even if they have to use the grass). You want to hold the brake pedal to avoid rolling across the track (possibly into the path of another car) after spinning out. If there was no one close behind you, a yellow flag might be displayed before the car behind you arrives to where your car is stopped on track depending on the number of manned flag stations and where the other cars are on track.

Examples:






I looked back at my Watkins Glen PDR videos in Cosworth toolbox and on my 3rd/final day there last year I did a new personal best lap of 2:08.78 in PTM Sport 2 without having to countersteer at all early in the morning when it was about 40°F outside and windy on lap 3 and my Supercar 3 minimum tire temperatures were 72-82°F and max 90-99°F on that lap. Minimum tire pressures were 31.0-31.9psi and max 33.1-34.2psi. But I already had 6.5 miles of driving on track when I started that lap. There was some intervention from PTM in the video but it must have been slight because I could not feel or hear it in the car. When it is hot outside and tires are hot and I am pushing hard I can usually hear and/or feel PTM intervention in Sport 2.

Towards the end of the same day I set my best lap time of 2:07.00 with tire temps ranging from 113-127°F and pressures ranging from 31.9-34.8psi. Ambient temp was 52°F. I think the lap time came from improved lines and carrying more speed in some corners. I'm not sure if the increased tire temp made much/any difference but maybe it helped me achieve higher cornering speeds.

My new personal best lap time set at NOLA this spring using PTM Race was on lap 6 with tire temps ranging from 102°F min to 117°F max with a cool ambient temp of 58°F. Tire pressures were about 1 psi lower than the early morning Watkins Glen lap.

I have found that once the Supercar 3 tires reach 150°F and above the car starts to become harder to control. A slow cooldown lap where you don't brake much can often help you get another fast lap in after the tires are hot but it will probably still be harder to control the car than earlier in the session when tires were cooler.

3 different times when I lost control of the car on Supercar 3s in different corners at 2 different tracks it was near the end of a session with a rear tire over 160°F. Another time I almost lost it at Sebring turn 17 and both front tires were around 170°F.

Here is a more extreme snap of oversteer on 100 treadwear Goodyear Supercar 3R tires where I had to use 402° of countersteer to correct it even though I was going much slower. Although I had already driven 3 miles on them (10x more distance than in the previous video on 220 treadwear Supercar 3 tires), the 3Rs warm up slower and oversteer harder if you are too aggressive before they're warm enough. I think just the transition from asphalt to concrete in the corner was enough to cause the oversteer in this case.



Finally, here's an example of someone else who got wheelspin going full throttle in 4th gear at 90mph on cold tires just 0.8 miles into the session at VIR with traction and stability control fully disabled and unfortunately crashed. This was a track sprint event style that has a standing start. On Supercar 3 tires the first run/lap should be at conservative speeds to warm the tires up without losing control especially in high risk corners:

[cdrptrks]

Also here are 2 examples of where I didn't jump off of the throttle abruptly during oversteer and recovered fine although others probably have better example videos:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXfuEaoKYXo&t=49s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhj-XKjxjIE&t=4s

[m6-lt1]

@N camarolina that must have been scary. Awesome save though and glad you and the car were okay. The S’s at VIR scare me but I do want to go one day.

Thanks cdptrks for all these examples. It looks like in some of your examples where you experience oversteer you only counter steer which I’m surprised by as I thought some throttle was required.

Funny enough, I experienced what you mentioned about not really worrying about the cars behind me hitting me while I am trying to catch oversteer with a potential of spinning out and staying on track. A Miata in front of me spun at the same turn as me in an earlier session. He however counter steered and went into the grass to the right versus me doing nothing and going to the left. While it was happening I slowed down and kept distance until I figured out where he was going to wind up at.

Also I have been watching yours and Christian’s Watkins Glenn videos as that’s the next track day I am going to (wait listed for njmp before). I kind of want to slap my all season tires on and go into a big empty parking lot and practice creating oversteer and seeing if I can catch it. Kinda nervous about the Glenn as there is nothing but walls there and my spin has somewhat hurt my confidence but I’m sure I can work on being confident again and applying all the good advice you and everyone else have given me (which I appreciate everyone’s awesome advice!)

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

Thanks cdptrks for all these examples. It looks like in some of your examples where you experience oversteer you only counter steer which I’m surprised by as I thought some throttle was required.

Funny enough, I experienced what you mentioned about not really worrying about the cars behind me hitting me while I am trying to catch oversteer with a potential of spinning out and staying on track. A Miata in front of me spun at the same turn as me in an earlier session. He however counter steered and went into the grass to the right versus me doing nothing and going to the left. While it was happening I slowed down and kept distance until I figured out where he was going to wind up at.

Also I have been watching yours and Christian’s Watkins Glenn videos as that’s the next track day I am going to (wait listed for njmp before). I kind of want to slap my all season tires on and go into a big empty parking lot and practice creating oversteer and seeing if I can catch it. Kinda nervous about the Glenn as there is nothing but walls there and my spin has somewhat hurt my confidence but I’m sure I can work on being confident again and applying all the good advice you and everyone else have given me (which I appreciate everyone’s awesome advice!)

You're welcome, if you react to the feeling of the back starting to come around quickly enough it is possible to catch oversteer without reducing throttle. Same thing when you were already off throttle when the oversteer started (generally during corner entry but that's more rare than power on oversteer later in the corner in my experience). It is hardest to catch when you suddenly go from full throttle or some throttle to 0 throttle and in some cases it may be impossible to avoid a spin when you do that because you run out of available steering angle so it is generally best to practice and remind yourself to maintain throttle position or just gradually reduce it a little bit when you experience oversteer. That's assuming a dry track. If you drive through oil or coolant or have a mechanical failure in a corner you might be unable to save it and might want to slam on the brakes as soon as you have given up trying to save it.

If you can find an autocross event in your area to sign up for, that's a great way to feel the limits of the car out. Generally that environment is safe enough to turn traction and stability control fully off if you want even as a novice and the worst that could happen is hitting some cones. I would not recommend picking any settings less helpful than PTM Sport 1 for your first time at Watkins Glen just to give you a safety net. I never turned everything off at Watkins Glen to keep some safety net even though I eventually tend to turn everything off at many of the tracks I visit.

For Watkins Glen I would recommend focusing on being consistent with your lines and gradually adding speed in corners where you think you could go faster throughout the event. If you try to add several mph in a corner in a single lap your car might end up wider than you thought and into a wall if there's one there. Similarly if you are inconsistent with where you turn into corners, you could run wider than expected on corner exit like if you turn in earlier than you had been before. Don't worry about comparing lap times to others (who probably have different experience levels and might have been driving in more optimal weather conditions and/or with less traffic) or chasing a certain lap time...just enjoy! If you focus on looking far ahead ("eyes up") and being consistent, lap times will probably improve naturally. Driving your line when you're following someone else instead of copying their line can be difficult but it is a skill you want to work on to improve your consistency since cars with different engine locations can have different ideal lines through the same corner and the car in front of you might have made a mistake that you don't want to copy. It can be helpful to compare your own lap times between different sessions while you wait for your next session if you want to but you don't even need to track lap times to enjoy the event. Watkins Glen is my 2nd favorite track out of more than 20 that I've been fortunate enough to drive; I bet you will love driving your Camaro there!

[cdrptrks]

Example of entry oversteer where I had 0 throttle before and during the slide...unfortunately I forgot to start the PDR that session so there's no data overlay but I probably tried to carry too much speed in and/or did too much trail braking: https://youtu.be/QApcdgZ7zps

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

You're welcome, if you react to the feeling of the back starting to come around quickly enough it is possible to catch oversteer without reducing throttle. Same thing when you were already off throttle when the oversteer started (generally during corner entry but that's more rare than power on oversteer later in the corner in my experience). It is hardest to catch when you suddenly go from full throttle or some throttle to 0 throttle and in some cases it may be impossible to avoid a spin when you do that because you run out of available steering angle so it is generally best to practice and remind yourself to maintain throttle position or just gradually reduce it a little bit when you experience oversteer. That's assuming a dry track. If you drive through oil or coolant or have a mechanical failure in a corner you might be unable to save it and might want to slam on the brakes as soon as you have given up trying to save it.

If you can find an autocross event in your area to sign up for, that's a great way to feel the limits of the car out. Generally that environment is safe enough to turn traction and stability control fully off if you want even as a novice and the worst that could happen is hitting some cones. I would not recommend picking any settings less helpful than PTM Sport 1 for your first time at Watkins Glen just to give you a safety net. I never turned everything off at Watkins Glen to keep some safety net even though I eventually tend to turn everything off at many of the tracks I visit.

For Watkins Glen I would recommend focusing on being consistent with your lines and gradually adding speed in corners where you think you could go faster throughout the event. If you try to add several mph in a corner in a single lap your car might end up wider than you thought and into a wall if there's one there. Similarly if you are inconsistent with where you turn into corners, you could run wider than expected on corner exit like if you turn in earlier than you had been before. Don't worry about comparing lap times to others (who probably have different experience levels and might have been driving in more optimal weather conditions and/or with less traffic) or chasing a certain lap time...just enjoy! If you focus on looking far ahead ("eyes up") and being consistent, lap times will probably improve naturally. Driving your line when you're following someone else instead of copying their line can be difficult but it is a skill you want to work on to improve your consistency since cars with different engine locations can have different ideal lines through the same corner and the car in front of you might have made a mistake that you don't want to copy. It can be helpful to compare your own lap times between different sessions while you wait for your next session if you want to but you don't even need to track lap times to enjoy the event. Watkins Glen is my 2nd favorite track out of more than 20 that I've been fortunate enough to drive; I bet you will love driving your Camaro there!

Thanks for the watkins Glenn advice. I had it in sport 1 when I spun at Pocono but I will still do sport 1 at watkins Glenn. Dry intervenes so much it ruins the fun. I will focus on my lines. I’ve gotten pretty good at catching myself quickly following someone else’s line but I do still occasionally do it. It’s easiest to catch when they are way off. I’m going to focus on being smoother/giving more throttle as steering angle lowers. Once I get more comfortable during the later sessions I’ll start to push a bit to just go a little bit quicker, not try to set a fast lap or anything. I’m really hoping I can get into one of the njmp events I am waitlisted for before watkins just to practice being smoother.

[m6-lt1]

Wanted to update this thread as I figured out my issue and I may have left out a key point. After getting a soft pedal I would back off for an entire lap. I remembered though that pretty much by the next corner after getting a soft pedal the pedal would actually feel firm again. I mentioned this to my instructor yesterday before any driving and told me it was pad knock. I wanted to update my thread in case anyone else new to track days experience this issue.

So if you have a soft pedal and it comes back to firm pretty much right away, what you experienced is pad knock. Apparently hitting the curbing on track can cause things to vibrate and slightly move out of place.

I bled my brakes prior to yesterdays event just in case put I didn’t have too. Didn’t get pad knock yesterday as it rained so I didn’t hit any curbing until the final session when the curbing was dry again.

Also worth mentioning to any newbies reading this, curbing takes longer to dry than the track so keep that in mind if you’re driving on damp/slightly wet day. Ptm wet works great. By the end of the day I had the car in sport 2 and was able to hit curbing.

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

Wanted to update this thread as I figured out my issue and I may have left out a key point. After getting a soft pedal I would back off for an entire lap. I remembered though that pretty much by the next corner after getting a soft pedal the pedal would actually feel firm again. I mentioned this to my instructor yesterday before any driving and told me it was pad knock. I wanted to update my thread in case anyone else new to track days experience this issue.

So if you have a soft pedal and it comes back to firm pretty much right away, what you experienced is pad knock. Apparently hitting the curbing on track can cause things to vibrate and slightly move out of place.

I bled my brakes prior to yesterdays event just in case put I didn’t have too. Didn’t get pad knock yesterday as it rained so I didn’t hit any curbing until the final session when the curbing was dry again.

Also worth mentioning to any newbies reading this, curbing takes longer to dry than the track so keep that in mind if you’re driving on damp/slightly wet day. Ptm wet works great. By the end of the day I had the car in sport 2 and was able to hit curbing.

When you backed off for that entire lap, did you touch the brakes at all? If so, how did they feel during that one lap?

Knockback is caused by deflection in the components. Bearings, calipers, knuckles. Just a tiny amount can push the pads into the caliper. It's not much but you'll feel it at the pedal. If you watch NASCAR or sports car racing, sometimes they will have a camera pointed at the feet and pedals. After the exit of a corner some drivers tap the brakes going down the straightaway before the next brake zone. They are setting the pads in case their was pad knockback. I recently drove my buddy's 2000 Camaro SS and I experienced the knockback.

[Christian1LE]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

Wanted to update this thread as I figured out my issue and I may have left out a key point. After getting a soft pedal I would back off for an entire lap. I remembered though that pretty much by the next corner after getting a soft pedal the pedal would actually feel firm again. I mentioned this to my instructor yesterday before any driving and told me it was pad knock. I wanted to update my thread in case anyone else new to track days experience this issue.

So if you have a soft pedal and it comes back to firm pretty much right away, what you experienced is pad knock. Apparently hitting the curbing on track can cause things to vibrate and slightly move out of place.

I bled my brakes prior to yesterdays event just in case put I didn’t have too. Didn’t get pad knock yesterday as it rained so I didn’t hit any curbing until the final session when the curbing was dry again.

Also worth mentioning to any newbies reading this, curbing takes longer to dry than the track so keep that in mind if you’re driving on damp/slightly wet day. Ptm wet works great. By the end of the day I had the car in sport 2 and was able to hit curbing.

That doesn't sound right. You can get pad knockback on our cars but it's really hard. The only time I've ever experienced it is when I am very aggressively weaving before a hot time trial lap. If you harshly turn left/right at speed (almost spinning) you will cause enough g forces to cause pad knock. I've never experienced any from just driving fast.

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by Christian1LE

That doesn't sound right. You can get pad knockback on our cars but it's really hard. The only time I've ever experienced it is when I am very aggressively weaving before a hot time trial lap. If you harshly turn left/right at speed (almost spinning) you will cause enough g forces to cause pad knock. I've never experienced any from just driving fast.

I agree, I have never experienced it on the Gen6... without getting to deep on it, I believe there is an engineered in reason.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

When you backed off for that entire lap, did you touch the brakes at all? If so, how did they feel during that one lap?

Knockback is caused by deflection in the components. Bearings, calipers, knuckles. Just a tiny amount can push the pads into the caliper. It's not much but you'll feel it at the pedal. If you watch NASCAR or sports car racing, sometimes they will have a camera pointed at the feet and pedals. After the exit of a corner some drivers tap the brakes going down the straightaway before the next brake zone. They are setting the pads in case their was pad knockback. I recently drove my buddy's 2000 Camaro SS and I experienced the knockback.

When I backed off for a lap I did touch the brakes during the lap, just was driving slower and braking less hard. They literally felt normal by the next corner but again I was driving less fast. I only remembered this because I was watching my pdr video in prep for Saturday and heard myself tell the instructor I had a soft pedal and then said it felt normal right after the next corner. This happened each time I experienced a soft pedal now that I am remembering correctly.

I read your next comment and Christians where you each state it’s rare on our cars. Another thing I never mentioned is I got a soft pedal twice during vehicle brake in just driving normal. Had not touched the factory fluid at that point.

Another thing I did before my track day yesterday was I flipped the front pads in order to avoid pad taper as I read on here the bottom of the pads taper. I had done 2 track days and decided to flip them every 2 track days. Maybe that fixed my issue?

I’ll also add I’ve had to drive on some rough roads to get to the track as in roads that got torn up in order to get paved later. Maybe the vibrations from those surfaces + curbing on track gave me pad knock?

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

I have never experienced it on the Gen6.

Same and I've driven on some very aggressive curbs like the bus stop at Watkins Glen last year and Road Atlanta turn 3 and VIR generally (including one of the uphill esses curbs).

I think I did have a slightly soft pedal a few times when my rear wheel bearing was going bad too but nothing bad enough to be memorable. I could see that the brake pads on that corner were getting knocked back a bit by the wheel bearing going bad when I removed the wheel to check.