[GTO_Gregory]

NO.
I have zero interest in an electric Camaro, especially if a four-door sedan.
The Pontiac GTO's of 2004-2006 sold about 13,000 a year. They were discontinued.
The Ford Mach-E sales were supposedly 1,448 in August 2022. The Mach-E comprised about "1.2% of Ford's total result." The Mach-E is not a compelling purchase. It's not the lowest cost or best performer. I feel a Camaro-E sedan would fall to a similar fate.
At the very least keep the Camaro-E a two-door sports car

[raptor5244]

Check this one out. The auto industry is being shaken and stirred.



https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...00cfcfeb49843d

[keep_hope_alive]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Check this one out. The auto industry is being shaken and stirred.

Attachment 1107789

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...00cfcfeb49843d

The best part of the article is saying that it's "up to $200,000 to upgrade each facility". As an EE who designs that stuff, I can tell you that in this market, with this demand, you can add a zero to that number. We're not talking about just adding a few receptacles here and there. We're talking full incoming service replacement and all new distribution.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Think this is mostly PR talk because Toyota is the furthest behind in the EV race.

They bet the wrong way( for now) and are trying their best to catch up and control the message.

But it is working. Plenty of other message boards are going, " I will consider an EV when Toyota makes one because then it will be good and they believe EV's are viable.

Reality is they went a different direction, Tesla came along proved EV's are viable, GM, Ford, Honda, etc shifted to EV's while Toyota lagged behind. So it is all damage control.

Who truly knows what the future holds. In the 2000's and early 2010's, it looked like hydrogen fuel cells were going to be the replacement for the ICE. Now it looks like it will be EV's.

I will repeat, EV's are not for everyone right now. I certainly understand the enthusiasts view on them. But enthusiasts need to realize they don't drive the market. Sure GM can keep an ICE sports car around, but it won't be priced at Camaro price levels. It will be priced like the Corvette is if not higher because of lack of commonality with the rest of the fleet. Camaro died due to lack of viable RWD platform to replace the F-Body, and it will die again once the Alpha platform goes.

My frustration in the current challenges in the infrastructure argument is it sounds defeatist and it can't change. It can change, but we are too busy being driven apart by the media, politicians, social media, etc to actually demand the people who should be working for us to actually invest in our countries infrastructure. Improve our power grid, set a standard for a charging plug, etc etc . More chargers are being installed every day. This transition will take time. As people like Martin have said, ICE is not going away anytime soon.

With many automakers going all in on EVs Toyota is smart to offer alternative fuel efficient Hybrids, which provides for a smoother migration to BEV, without all the negatives. Sure, they still burn fuel but many of the newer ones are very efficient. Some are plug-in hybrids where folks could charge with a simple 110v outlet and get like 30 miles of range on the battery without engaging the ICE based engine, which is about the average people drive per day. They put less demand on the infrastructure, no range anxiety and they cost less. A RAV4 Hybrid costs like $30k and gets 40mpg. With a 14.5 gallon tank you could drive almost 600 miles in the city, about 550 miles with highway driving. It is fantastic vehicle if you are in the market for a reliable fuel efficient vehicle.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

The best part of the article is saying that it's "up to $200,000 to upgrade each facility". As an EE who designs that stuff, I can tell you that in this market, with this demand, you can add a zero to that number. We're not talking about just adding a few receptacles here and there. We're talking full incoming service replacement and all new distribution.

I believe it. I was just at a Cadillac dealer last week and they said they were converting 3 of the service bays with special lifts and equipment for servicing EVs. They also have to send a bunch of folks through training. It is a significant investment for a product that actually requires less servicing. The only reason an EV should be at the dealer is for warranty work or new tires and alignment and you know the dealer is not necessarily the best place to go for tires.

I have a feeling these EVs are actually going to cost less to produce and the dealers will be able to make more profit per vehicle on the front end. For example, Tesla has over 30% profit margin on their vehicles, while the industry average is about 8-10% on mid priced cars and 10-15% on luxury vehicles. These universal "skateboard" BEV architectures make it much more cost effective to build vehicles but I don't think we will see these savings passed on to the customer. These dealers need a way to stay in business and without service revenue I think GM will let them make more profit. Or GM will try going direct like Tesla and maybe even Ford. Who knows?

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

With many automakers going all in on EVs Toyota is smart to offer alternative fuel efficient Hybrids, which provides for a smoother migration to BEV, without all the negatives. Sure, they still burn fuel but many of the newer ones are very efficient. Some are plug-in hybrids where folks could charge with a simple 110v outlet and get like 30 miles of range on the battery without engaging the ICE based engine, which is about the average people drive per day. They put less demand on the infrastructure, no range anxiety and they cost less. A RAV4 Hybrid costs like $30k and gets 40mpg. With a 14.5 gallon tank you could drive almost 600 miles in the city, about 550 miles with highway driving. It is fantastic vehicle if you are in the market for a reliable fuel efficient vehicle.

Oh I am not opposed to Toyota offering plug in hybrids and normal hybrids still. I am not advocating they need to switch completely over and be full EV or bust like GM is marketing it as for them.

But fact is they are about 3-5 years behind the others in their EV development. I just interpret their statement as damage control PR due to that fact. Trying to control the message/narrative. Just like how Steve Jobs explained one year why the iPod didn't offer video capability when other MP3 players did saying the experience sucked. But then the next year the iPod gained video capabilities despite not drastically changing said experience. All PR and controlling the narrative.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Oh I am not opposed to Toyota offering plug in hybrids and normal hybrids still. I am not advocating they need to switch completely over and be full EV or bust like GM is marketing it as for them.

But fact is they are about 3-5 years behind the others in their EV development. I just interpret their statement as damage control PR due to that fact. Trying to control the message/narrative. Just like how Steve Jobs explained one year why the iPod didn't offer video capability when other MP3 players did saying the experience sucked. But then the next year the iPod gained video capabilities despite not drastically changing said experience. All PR and controlling the narrative.

I agree to a certain extent but BEVs will only represent a small portion of the market for a while, which is why I am scratching my head over GMs "all-in" move to quickly. I mean how many BEVs do they think they can produce? All BEV manufactures are battery constrained.

IMO, I think GM is marketing one thing but really doing another. If they don't have Alpha BEV replacements then ready then I would think they would continue to sell the Camaro and Cadillac sedans until they do. Why stop selling a product with no replacement? The majority of pickup trucks that are not BEV ready. They have a new ICE based refreshed Colorado coming out soon as well.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I agree to a certain extent but BEVs will only represent a small portion of the market for a while, which is why I am scratching my head over GMs "all-in" move to quickly. I mean how many BEVs do they think they can produce? All BEV manufactures are battery constrained.

IMO, I think GM is marketing one thing but really doing another. If they don't have Alpha BEV replacements then ready then I would think they would continue to sell the Camaro and Cadillac sedans until they do. Why stop selling a product with no replacement? The majority of pickup trucks that are not BEV ready. They have a new ICE based refreshed Colorado coming out soon as well.

Agree that BEV's will be a small portion for awhile. Also agree this all in GM is marketing is risky if it is what they say it is. Just like Toyota falling behind in EV's, if a different fuel/power source for cars comes along( lets say hydrogen makes a come back) then GM is now flat footed and behind like Toyota is now because they invested so much in EV's. Toyota continuing to produce at least hybrids/PHEV's is a smart move while they also offer BEV's. Just all we have from Toyota in terms of BEV are concepts that probably won't see the market until 2025-2026?

[Chrome383Z]

Product management at GM should be fired. They do not understand the market.

[CamaroBody]

I would buy it





.

[JoeCamaro444]

Nope

[digitalfutur]

Toyota downplaying EVs in favor of a technology they are spending more R&D money on. Who'd a thunk it?

It was several years after GM and others had rolled out Apple Car Play/Android Auto that Toyota even offered it as an option, essentially forcing their customers to learn another auto GUI (theirs), when a superior product was readily available. Now all their vehicles have it standard. One guess as to why Toyota finally came on board.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by digitalfutur

Toyota downplaying EVs in favor of a technology they are spending more R&D money on. Who'd a thunk it?

It was several years after GM and others had rolled out Apple Car Play/Android Auto that Toyota even offered it as an option, essentially forcing their customers to learn another auto GUI (theirs), when a superior product was readily available. Now all their vehicles have it standard. One guess as to why Toyota finally came on board.

Toyota are smart, staying behind the bleeding edge and letting others take the high and useless risk of pushing agenda driven strategies. If that still pans out for some reason, they can still go "all in" later—they're Toyota with a genuine reputation, they will be loved for it; if not, well, they have meaningful plans B and C, unlike others.

[Chrome383Z]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Toyota are smart, staying behind the bleeding edge and letting others take the high and useless risk of pushing agenda driven strategies. If that still pans out for some reason, they can still go "all in" later—they're Toyota with a genuine reputation, they will be loved for it; if not, well, they have meaningful plans B and C, unlike others.

Unfortunately now cars have become political. No product manager with half a brain would do what GM is doing (going all in on EV). It’s very political. There’s a high probability the next administration might eliminate EV credits because it’s a waste of money. Then what?

And I don’t have a problem with EV, for some folks it fits well. But for a vast majority it does not. People joke about range anxiety, but that’s real. I live in the Midwest, there aren’t chargers…. Few and far between and honestly folks don’t want them.

There is no benefit to this “mass” change that is being forced on us. None.