[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Here is another perspective.

Attachment 1107718


Attachment 1107720

https://www.hotcars.com/heres-why-to...re-the-future/

Think this is mostly PR talk because Toyota is the furthest behind in the EV race.

They bet the wrong way( for now) and are trying their best to catch up and control the message.

But it is working. Plenty of other message boards are going, " I will consider an EV when Toyota makes one because then it will be good and they believe EV's are viable.

Reality is they went a different direction, Tesla came along proved EV's are viable, GM, Ford, Honda, etc shifted to EV's while Toyota lagged behind. So it is all damage control.

Who truly knows what the future holds. In the 2000's and early 2010's, it looked like hydrogen fuel cells were going to be the replacement for the ICE. Now it looks like it will be EV's.

I will repeat, EV's are not for everyone right now. I certainly understand the enthusiasts view on them. But enthusiasts need to realize they don't drive the market. Sure GM can keep an ICE sports car around, but it won't be priced at Camaro price levels. It will be priced like the Corvette is if not higher because of lack of commonality with the rest of the fleet. Camaro died due to lack of viable RWD platform to replace the F-Body, and it will die again once the Alpha platform goes.

My frustration in the current challenges in the infrastructure argument is it sounds defeatist and it can't change. It can change, but we are too busy being driven apart by the media, politicians, social media, etc to actually demand the people who should be working for us to actually invest in our countries infrastructure. Improve our power grid, set a standard for a charging plug, etc etc . More chargers are being installed every day. This transition will take time. As people like Martin have said, ICE is not going away anytime soon.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Think this is mostly PR talk because Toyota is the furthest behind in the EV race.

They bet the wrong way( for now) and are trying their best to catch up and control the message.

But it is working. Plenty of other message boards are going, " I will consider an EV when Toyota makes one because then it will be good and they believe EV's are viable.

Reality is they went a different direction, Tesla came along proved EV's are viable, GM, Ford, Honda, etc shifted to EV's while Toyota lagged behind. So it is all damage control.

Who truly knows what the future holds. In the 2000's and early 2010's, it looked like hydrogen fuel cells were going to be the replacement for the ICE. Now it looks like it will be EV's.

I will repeat, EV's are not for everyone right now. I certainly understand the enthusiasts view on them. But enthusiasts need to realize they don't drive the market. Sure GM can keep an ICE sports car around, but it won't be priced at Camaro price levels. It will be priced like the Corvette is if not higher because of lack of commonality with the rest of the fleet. Camaro died due to lack of viable RWD platform to replace the F-Body, and it will die again once the Alpha platform goes.

My frustration in the current challenges in the infrastructure argument is it sounds defeatist and it can't change. It can change, but we are too busy being driven apart by the media, politicians, social media, etc to actually demand the people who should be working for us to actually invest in our countries infrastructure. Improve our power grid, set a standard for a charging plug, etc etc . More chargers are being installed every day. This transition will take time. As people like Martin have said, ICE is not going away anytime soon.

LOL. OK.
Toyota total 2021 sales 9.51 million vehicles total revenue 245 billion.
Stellantis total 2021 sales 6.6 million vehicles total revenue 176.8 billion.
GM total 2021 sales 6.3 million vehicles revenue 127 billion.

I'm sorry, who 'bet the wrong way'? The company that sold 3 million more vehicles and earned almost 60 billion more dollars than the ones who are going all electric? Please...total BS.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

LOL. OK.
Toyota total 2021 sales 9.51 million vehicles total revenue 245 billion.
Stellantis total 2021 sales 6.6 million vehicles total revenue 176.8 billion.
GM total 2021 sales 6.3 million vehicles revenue 127 billion.

I'm sorry, who 'bet the wrong way'? The company that sold 3 million more vehicles and earned almost 60 billion more dollars than the ones who are going all electric? Please...total BS.

Toyota invested heavy into hydrogen and everyone else practically abandoned their hydrogen development and shifted to EV’s while Toyota stubbornly said no. Now they have been caught flat footed, this, “ we are taking a wait and see approach” is all PR damage control.

What do you think will happen to their sales if demand for EV’s keep on rising? Do you think people will go to Toyota or shift to other manufactures when Toyota doesn’t offer a competitive EV?

Where was Blackberry in 2007? Top of the market laughing at the iPhone. They lagged behind, now RIM barely exists today.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Think this is mostly PR talk because Toyota is the furthest behind in the EV race.

They bet the wrong way( for now) and are trying their best to catch up and control the message.

But it is working. Plenty of other message boards are going, " I will consider an EV when Toyota makes one because then it will be good and they believe EV's are viable.

Reality is they went a different direction, Tesla came along proved EV's are viable, GM, Ford, Honda, etc shifted to EV's while Toyota lagged behind. So it is all damage control.

Who truly knows what the future holds. In the 2000's and early 2010's, it looked like hydrogen fuel cells were going to be the replacement for the ICE. Now it looks like it will be EV's.

I will repeat, EV's are not for everyone right now. I certainly understand the enthusiasts view on them. But enthusiasts need to realize they don't drive the market. Sure GM can keep an ICE sports car around, but it won't be priced at Camaro price levels. It will be priced like the Corvette is if not higher because of lack of commonality with the rest of the fleet. Camaro died due to lack of viable RWD platform to replace the F-Body, and it will die again once the Alpha platform goes.

My frustration in the current challenges in the infrastructure argument is it sounds defeatist and it can't change. It can change, but we are too busy being driven apart by the media, politicians, social media, etc to actually demand the people who should be working for us to actually invest in our countries infrastructure. Improve our power grid, set a standard for a charging plug, etc etc . More chargers are being installed every day. This transition will take time. As people like Martin have said, ICE is not going away anytime soon.

im not positive EV is the way to go but i agree that our electric infrastructure is sadly lacking,with utilities asking customers not to run a/c or charge the small percentage of EVs at peak hours.we could argue about EVs all day long,but we cant deny that our electrical grid is way behind our now and future demands.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

im not positive EV is the way to go but i agree that our electric infrastructure is sadly lacking,with utilities asking customers not to run a/c or charge the small percentage of EVs at peak hours.we could argue about EVs all day long,but we cant deny that our electrical grid is way behind our now and future demands.

Certainly… As you said it can’t keep up with current demand even if you take EV’s out of the picture.

As Americans, we should be demanding that our infrastructure can handle the hot, the cold, etc. Our infrastructure in general is a joke and we let our elected representatives get away with it because wedge issues get in the way. That is by design because wedge issues is how they keep on getting elected, how the media generates ratings/profits, etc.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

wedge issues is how they keep on getting elected, how the media generates ratings/profits, etc.

Originally Posted by Number 3

LOL and the only proof of that is Trump told you so.

There's ways elections are swayed, and ways they're stolen. When enough people down ballot usually stay on Party... and you see counties with one race being very off, that tells you something... and you see a different odd statewide race with many, many small precincts showing a common 5% shift, that tells you something too.

I didn't vote for Trump in '20. Appointing establishment hacks was inauspicious then, so is endorsing them after anti-establishment candidates got diluted out in the primary.


So... Toyota has a mountain bankroll of earnings and trust, and are Japan's too big to fail. They can't be dismissed.

So... BEVs take the rat-race market and give them a chance to drive way faster than they can handle. People that want even faster with lighter packs, may or may not be a market. That crowd may by nature be grand touring, but takes flights for trips anyway.

So... the Camaro may not have a viable, affordable platform to succeed alpha. That was/is completely a choice, even with a looming mandate in the '30s. There are dovetail segments than can support a platform for people that like to do their own driving, without tech magic tricks.

[csn29]

No. The main reason why i purchased my 2023 Camaro is because it is likely the last or soon to be last of a dying breed of drivers cars. Any car can go fast (see Tesla) but they lack the heart and soul of a car with a combustion engine and don't have the sweet sound of a performance exhaust. Driving a car is about an emotion and a feeling (at least for me) and an electric car will never have that for me.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by genxer

There's ways elections are swayed, and ways they're stolen. When enough people down ballot usually stay on Party... and you see counties with one race being very off, that tells you something... and you see a different odd statewide race with many, many small precincts showing a common 5% shift, that tells you something too.

I didn't vote for Trump in '20. Appointing establishment hacks was inauspicious then, so is endorsing them after anti-establishment candidates got diluted out in the primary.


So... Toyota has a mountain bankroll of earnings and trust, and are Japan's too big to fail. They can't be dismissed.

So... BEVs take the rat-race market and give them a chance to drive way faster than they can handle. People that want even faster with lighter packs, may or may not be a market. That crowd may by nature be grand touring, but takes flights for trips anyway.

So... the Camaro may not have a viable, affordable platform to succeed alpha. That was/is completely a choice, even with a looming mandate in the '30s. There are dovetail segments than can support a platform for people that like to do their own driving, without tech magic tricks.

I’m not going to wade into the 2020 crap.

It’s off topic, breaks forum rules, etc.

[Chrome383Z]

Tesla did not prove EV are viable. lol.

They proved the rich can afford EV. And they are like 5% of the market. This EV push is political stupidity. No one really wants this. It’s asinine.

I’ll say it now and probably say it again, EV are not going to work with Lithium being the battery technology. It’s not. (Electrical grid issues aside, it always gets blowed off but it’s a BIG problem - coming from somebody that works in Power Gen)

[redcoats1976]

yes,lithium will certainly be a problem.it takes a lot of mining to produce a battery.perhaps fuel mileage standards are not as draconian as they appear to be.a 250 horsepower car will get you down the road almost as well as a 600 horsepower car will in the real world and use less fuel/produce less emissions doing it.better to drive a car that goes 0-60 in 7 seconds and be able to get around than to be forced into public transportation or walking.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z

Tesla did not prove EV are viable. lol.

They proved the rich can afford EV. And they are like 5% of the market. This EV push is political stupidity. No one really wants this. It’s asinine.

I’ll say it now and probably say it again, EV are not going to work with Lithium being the battery technology. It’s not. (Electrical grid issues aside, it always gets blowed off but it’s a BIG problem - coming from somebody that works in Power Gen)

They absolutely did prove EV’s are viable. Affordability is a different matter, but Tesla absolutely proved an EV is viable as a vehicle. The affordability part is getting worked out slowly.

Before the market insanity, the cheapest Model 3 was around $37,000. Cheapest Model Y was $48,000. Certainly starting to get into the affordability of middle to upper middle class people. Not the rich. The Equinox EV will be $30,000 starting.

[Chrome383Z]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

They absolutely did prove EV’s are viable. Affordability is a different matter, but Tesla absolutely proved an EV is viable as a vehicle. The affordability part is getting worked out slowly.

Before the market insanity, the cheapest Model 3 was around $37,000. Cheapest Model Y was $48,000. Certainly starting to get into the affordability of middle to upper middle class people. Not the rich. The Equinox EV will be $30,000 starting.

Ok I’m sorry. Most folks can’t afford even a $37k vehicle that limits them on when they can drive it. Maybe the “upper-middle” class can afford it but not the largest market which is the middle class.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z

Ok I’m sorry. Most folks can’t afford even a $37k vehicle that limits them on when they can drive it. Maybe the “upper-middle” class can afford it but not the largest market which is the middle class.

My point was before market insanity, the prices of EV's were coming down. You had more affordable vehicles that were not high end vehicles like the Model S and Model X.

Yes they are not there yet for the sweet spot for the bulk of the middle class to afford. But certainly started to come down in prices where not just the rich can afford EV's.

[Aragorn]