[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Mechanics spend more time fixing engineers f'd up designs than you think. You laugh at us while we cuss you out but it's true. Don't be so proud of yourself and your pals with all your degrees. Plenty of mechanics - who are the REAL car guys - would take a wrench to your cranium if they could while in the middle of fixing some really f'd up stuff. But that's on all cars, so don't feel like I'm singling you out specifically. You're just part of it.

Just because YOU don't think clutch starting a car or pushing it a few feet without starting it aren't "expected" uses by a customer doesn't mean they in fact aren't. Maybe you need to start simply talking to real people who actually learn about cars in a garage - you know, that thing where cars exist in the real world - instead of whatever they teach you in college.

We need more people like Henry Yunick in top levels with final say of engineering and design at car companies and fewer people like those who exist now.

But in all seriousness, the mechanical parking brake should have never been replaced. It's a BAD idea. For safety and reliability, there needs to be some form of completely analog control for a human to have over a car even if everything electronic completely fails.

Because as we all know, real car guys make up 99% of the sales. That's just a fact everyone should know.

When 95+% of the drivers now drive an auto and parking gear holding the car well, most people don't even use a handbrake. You think most people even learn about their cars?

A Camaro is still a mass-produced car at the end of the day. Now if it's a Lotus(which sells their cars to primarily enthusiasts), your complaint would be more valid, but for a Chevy car? 99% of the owners will be indifferent. Adapt to it or keep complaining.

And cars are so full of electronics nowadays that electronic hand brakes are the least of your concerns. So what, we should all have a manual choke switch just in case the fuel injection computer stops working? Just carry some jumper cables in your car. It's not hard.

Last but not least, good mechanics get stuff done. I don't think anyone pays a mechanic to complain.

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[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Because as we all know, real car guys make up 99% of the sales. That's just a fact everyone should know.

When 95+% of the drivers now drive an auto and parking gear holding the car well, most people don't even use a handbrake. You think most people even learn about their cars?

A Camaro is still a mass-produced car at the end of the day. Now if it's a Lotus(which sells their cars to primarily enthusiasts), your complaint would be more valid, but for a Chevy car? 99% of the owners will be indifferent. Adapt to it or keep complaining.

And cars are so full of electronics nowadays that electronic hand brakes are the least of your concerns. So what, we should all have a manual choke switch just in case the fuel injection computer stops working? Just carry some jumper cables in your car. It's not hard.

Last but not least, good mechanics get stuff done. I don't think anyone pays a mechanic to complain.

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So why the hell did you buy a Camaro to begin with? If you’re so f’ing satisfied with electronic everything just buy a Tesla or whatever the least driver involved car there is on the market.

I mean seriously. What the f? A Camaro is supposed to be a drivers car every bit of a Lotus. Your reasoning is flawed. There’s no reason for the Camaro nameplate to exist if everything on it eliminates driver involvement.

And just because a mechanic is good doesn’t mean he’s not cussing out the engineers half the time. The best mechanics probably do it more than anyone.

[s346k]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

So why the hell did you buy a Camaro to begin with?

the question is: why didn't you buy a 1979 camaro? the camaros are so electronic laden its not even funny. your view on their purpose is skewed, just a touch. they aren't drivers cars, in your sense of definition, when they offer 5 levels of ptm, 4 different driving "modes" etc etc...etc. comparing chevrolet to lotus now? come on man.

[s346k]

the golden era of cars representing freedom and fun is over. they are utilitarian now and as opposed to being separate from life (except for the very few), the auto makers are making them extensions of life. onboard wifi, hands free everything... so you can do it all, except drive.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by s346k

the question is: why didn't you buy a 1979 camaro? the camaros are so electronic laden its not even funny. your view on their purpose is skewed, just a touch. they aren't drivers cars, in your sense of definition, when they offer 5 levels of ptm, 4 different driving "modes" etc etc...etc. comparing chevrolet to lotus now? come on man.

Don’t f’ing yell at me for comparing the Camaro to the Lotus - UnkniwnJinX brought that up, not me.

All this started with is a fking parking brake. You’re delusional to defend an electronic parking brake.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

So why the hell did you buy a Camaro to begin with? If you’re so f’ing satisfied with electronic everything just buy a Tesla or whatever the least driver involved car there is on the market.

I mean seriously. What the f? A Camaro is supposed to be a drivers car every bit of a Lotus. Your reasoning is flawed. There’s no reason for the Camaro nameplate to exist if everything on it eliminates driver involvement.

And just because a mechanic is good doesn’t mean he’s not cussing out the engineers half the time. The best mechanics probably do it more than anyone.

I bought it because it's a good mix of everything I want and I am fine with the compromises. Every car will have their own set of compromises. You buy the car with compromises you are okay with

It doesn't have to be extremes. Just because I don't want a car with a crank window doesn't automatically mean I am a Tesla supporter.

It took me some getting used to as well, but now that I am used to it, it's not really worth complaining about.

What makes you think a Camaro's as much as a driver's car as a Lotus? You still got power steering, right? And you have a proper door handle? An A/C? Because they are all "not real driver" things. Fact is that Camaro has to cater to mass buyers as well who just wants a cool looking car, and for DD, I value the comfort, too.

And sure, a mechanic can hate engineers like engineers are some kind of fictional villain that wants nothing but pain for mechanics while laughing evily, but good mechanics get stuff done, and that's the important, defining characteristic, not the complaining bit. At the end of the day, you work with the compromise or do something about it.

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Don’t f’ing yell at me for comparing the Camaro to the Lotus - UnkniwnJinX brought that up, not me.

All this started with is a fking parking brake. You’re delusional to defend an electronic parking brake.

I said a Camaro is not on the same level of driver's car as a Lotus. You argued the opposite, hence s346k's reply.

And I am more playing devil's advocate than supporting it. I am just indifferent, as I stated. That means I don't really care. I enjoy the car regardless.



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[Racerman27410]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I would ask then, when you engage the clutch and force the engine to turn, isn't the alternator turning as well? If it is, it's sending 12 volts to everything that requires power - at least, while the engine is turning.

Nope.... even the alternator charging is computer controlled.. it doesn't charge until the computer commands it.. they used every trick in the book to massage HP AND MPGs out of this engine including only letting the alternator charge certain amounts under certain situations.

there is no way to bump start these cars with a dead battery no matter how long or steep the hill is.

I'm just trying to help you keep from possibly getting your car in a bad way on the road rolling down a hil or even damaging the electronics by attempting it.... There are over 20 computers simultaneously wanting 12 volts in the Camaro ..they are very sensitive to voltage fluctuations in the first place and they absolutely do not work at all without a constant 12 volt supply.

Now If the starter goes out and you still have a good battery i think you may be able to bump start a manual trans car...Not sure i would try it unless i was forced to knowing what i know about my cars electronics..... but seriously there is no way of getting around a dead battery for starting the engine other than with another 12 volt source.

Edit.... in the spirit of this thread i also do not like the e brake!

[az4783054]

Some of the silly arguments here remind me of corvetteforum. Give me a car that performs like the LT4 Corvette Z06 or LT4 Camaro ZL1, but give me less electronics. Hell I'd be happy with crank up windows.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Racerman27410

Nope.... even the alternator charging is computer controlled.. it doesn't charge until the computer commands it.. they used every trick in the book to massage HP AND MPGs out of this engine including only letting the alternator charge certain amounts under certain situations.

there is no way to bump start these cars with a dead battery no matter how long or steep the hill is.

I'm just trying to help you keep from possibly getting your car in a bad way on the road rolling down a hil or even damaging the electronics by attempting it.... There are over 20 computers simultaneously wanting 12 volts in the Camaro ..they are very sensitive to voltage fluctuations in the first place and they absolutely do not work at all without a constant 12 volt supply.

Now If the starter goes out and you still have a good battery i think you may be able to bump start a manual trans car...Not sure i would try it unless i was forced to knowing what i know about my cars electronics..... but seriously there is no way of getting around a dead battery for starting the engine other than with another 12 volt source.

Edit.... in the spirit of this thread i also do not like the e brake!

I remain dubious. The alternator is putting out 12 volts as long as it’s coupled. The computers decouple the pulley from the magnet, like an A/C compressor. But when a car is first started the computers are going to tell the alternator to charge the battery from the current that was just lost from starting the car. So the alternator should be coupled after startup until recharging is complete. Then the computers signal it to decouple and the pulley spins free under no load.

A coupled alternator is putting out 12 volts at any RPM above about 500.

[UnknownJinX]

Or just have a towing service. Or carry jumper cables in the car.

Less guesswork and potential for damage.

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[Zaqwert6]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

A coupled alternator is putting out 12 volts at any RPM above about 500.

What's the final drive ratio in first gear? 500 RPM, think you be lucky if you hit 10-15-20 in those couple of tire rotations you'd be lucky to get trying to bump start that car yourself.

[95 imp]

I hate to say it, but there is no bump starting a car with a dead battery any more.

The engineers seem to be making these cars, whether by gov't mandate or from "market demand", that are totally idiot proof, self driving, and ridiculously overladen with electronics. Another 20 years and there will be no such thing as a human controlled auto. You hop in and it takes you. Just like a ride in an amusement park.

Imagine what is going to happen to the world wide fleet when a really good solar flare hits us and wipes out the electronics....

[s346k]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Don’t f’ing yell at me for comparing the Camaro to the Lotus - UnkniwnJinX brought that up, not me.

All this started with is a fking parking brake. You’re delusional to defend an electronic parking brake.

lighten up, francis. i'm not defending the parking brake. i do not care for it, either.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Mechanics spend more time fixing engineers f'd up designs than you think. You laugh at us while we cuss you out but it's true. Don't be so proud of yourself and your pals with all your degrees. Plenty of mechanics - who are the REAL car guys - would take a wrench to your cranium if they could while in the middle of fixing some really f'd up stuff. But that's on all cars, so don't feel like I'm singling you out specifically. You're just part of it.

Just because YOU don't think clutch starting a car or pushing it a few feet without starting it aren't "expected" uses by a customer doesn't mean they in fact aren't. Maybe you need to start simply talking to real people who actually learn about cars in a garage - you know, that thing where cars exist in the real world - instead of whatever they teach you in college.

We need more people like Henry Yunick in top levels with final say of engineering and design at car companies and fewer people like those who exist now.

But in all seriousness, the mechanical parking brake should have never been replaced. It's a BAD idea. For safety and reliability, there needs to be some form of completely analog control for a human to have over a car even if everything electronic completely fails.

Oh believe me design for serviceability is a HUGE issue we deal with every day. But that is one of many things that have to be considered in a design.

But simply stating that someone on a VERY rare occasion might push start a manual does not mean you have to consider it in the design, particularly if you expect a customer to maintain their vehicles correctly. As I’m sure you would agree with a true car person would be well aware of the maintenance needs of heir vehicle.

And only because I deal with too often elimination of a manual park brake and replacing it with an electronic one is not a safety issue. But I’d be interested in your argument.