[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

If you look at GM's skateboard battery concept, it doesn't lend itself to a conventional powertrain.

And the skateboard concept is really best suited to the taller vehicles in a mfr's lineup, SUVs, CUVs, and tall wagons. And really the wrong way to go for any vehicle that wants any real credibility as a would-be sports car (let's not go down that rabbit hole again just yet). Think floor height and everything that gets defined from there, plus there's the technical aspect where spreading all that battery weight out over the plan view area increases PMOI and makes the car less nimble in the process even if the weight difference can be held down to a wash.

And that simply gets to the cost issue. IF GM does what it says and Cadillac is 100% electric by 2030, then where is a RWD architecture to build a Camaro off of? It would have to be an orphan architecture, Alpha

At least in the short to medium run, run with the Alpha platform - it's generally considered the best of the ponycar bunch as it is, so it should still have the most shelf life left in it. I'm sure that there's room in Alpha for further improvement/refinement, and FCA has certainly proven that "being stuck with yesterday's chassis" doesn't have to be a handicap.


I'm afraid for the Mustang as it is, with that Mach E thing and rumors of platform sharing. Maybe be a bit careful what you wish for - a CUV-ish Camaro dictated by a skateboard platform just wouldn't be a Camaro no matter how much advertising or badging might be thrown at it.


Norm

[pyroguy]

Originally Posted by mikeman

Lol! I agree, especially regarding the GTO. However, at least it gave us a 2 dr RWD coupe with a big V8 engine unlike the FWD only W-body Monte Carlo SS. The Nova was an egregious example though. That was just slapping the Nova badge on an import. And, they say the Cimmaron was bad. At least it was a GM sourced design. GM was trying everything under the sun to raise their CAFE numbers back then.

I never expected the Regal to go back to RWD though. Once that model turned FWD in '88, there was no turning back. GM was all about FWD except for the Camaro, Corvette and the trucks. It was Bob Lutz who brought the Holden Monaro based GTO over here. Even though it looked very bland for the U.S. market, I'm glad he did it. You can take this sentiment one step further and talk about how they used the "SS" nameplate on everything as well. From trucks to 4 door sedans, it got kind of ridiculous.

The new Blazer could've been a modern interpretion of the classic K5 Blazer, but you know what? I bet it probably wouldn't have sold for chit. The Camaro like front grill styling on the current CUV Blazer foreshadows what may be coming to the Camaro nameplate in. I hope I'm wrong, but with 6th gen sales tanking the way they have been the last few years, I see no other choice.

I'm glad the GTO made it back too. 2 door RWD muscle car was a great idea, just poor styling made it never take off. On that same line, the G8 was a car that would have taken off had they kept Pontiac and kept the advertising up. It was a perfect competitor for the Charger and they were a hell of a lot of fun to drive, but when GM was bailed out the government made them get rid of it.

As for the SS nameplate, even Chevy admitted that they messed up slapping it on EVERYTHING. If they were going to do it they should have been serious about it and kept some serious performers. The Cobalt SS with a turbo was actually a pretty good competitor and was the predecessor to Ford's Focus ST/RS models. Had they made some AWD versions of the SS Monte Carlo, Impala, etc. they could have survived pretty well or made the SS pickup more than 0.1 second quicker to 60 than the early 90's RWD 454SS one they could have had a serious sport truck like the SRT-10 Ram.

As for the new Blazer, it does look like a SUV Camaro. The dashboard layout screams 6th gen Camaro. I doubt it's going to become a Camaro one day like the Mustang SUV, but I've been wrong before. The future is uncertain other than GM is sinking A BUNCH of money into EV's. Will they be a fad or is it the future of automobiles? Who knows. Everyone thought 3D TV's would be standard equipment and now you can't hardly find a new 3D TV to buy.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

No severe problems or extremes?....Then why are they working on solving them?

I think you are missing the context here. @MrChrisLS3 said that the fact that a lot of people live in homes that will not allow them access to a plug and that this fact would severely limit the number of people who can buy an EV. I agreed that this would limit the number of people that can buy an EV. It just won’t be a severe limitation (in terms of number of sales impacted). Sam in apartment 4B wouldn’t have a place to plug it in every night, so Sam should not be buying an EV. Unless Sam’s building provides assigned parking with plug-in access. On the other hand, people who live in a single family dwelling with a garage and who can commute to work on a minimum of the EV’s range might find that an EV is what the doctor ordered. Especially if they can also plug-in at work. If your vehicle’s range is 300 miles and your commute is 13 miles

Originally Posted by 90503

It's not the answer for some, but the answer for a lot?....OK, but is there really a question in the first place?

EVs will lose their attraction without subsidies, tax-breaks, commuter perks, etc, and will surely be heavily taxed and regulated based on miles driven, etc. The electricity used at a charging station can easily be made more expensive than a gallon of gas, and shut off and unavailable for a variety of unforeseen reasons. There is no competitive or economic reason to go electric over ICE.

All of this is regional / local. Some states / municipalities due and may continue to offer preferential treatment (parking, tax credits and rebates et cetera) we’ve seen that and we’ve seen the effect it has on EV sales. But with or without those incentives, EVs have a decided advantage in terms of total cost of operation. There is no exhaust system, much less load on the friction brakes because of the ability to motor brake, which not only slows the car without physical brakes, but returns energy to the battery for more efficiency, fewer moving parts to replace due to age, no engine oil, coolant, transmission fluid to be replace. The move towards skateboard designs have resulted in lower center of gravity for more stability and better interior packaging for occupants and features. This also provides some styling freedom, although we really haven’t seen good example of that in use yet <cough> Nissan Leaf <cough>. Sure, the price of electricity can fluctuate. Kind of a way of life with gas, though. A year and a half ago I was paying near $4 a gallon for 93 octane. Three days ago I filled up one of my cars from E for $9.20. 18+ gallons at $0.489.

Originally Posted by 90503

Say what you want about gas, but overall it has been the best, least expensive and reliable source of transportation energy.
EV needs to be artificially promoted by govt to be a success. An open market will not support it alone. At some point, ICE will have to be banned. That's not what they are calling for now, but it is subtly happening with the future models and baked in decisions to go all electric at some point in the years ahead....Like the next Gen Camaro, perhaps.

I doubt very seriously that ICE will be banned. There are just too many situations where electric doesn’t work well. Sam in 4B. Plus, ICEs still have some development left in them to improve efficiency. ICEs will be around for several more decades at least. But there are companies, Tesla, GM, VW that are invested on driving the cost of batteries down to a level where there is cost parity between ICEs and EVs in similar product segments. Then the purchase decision for each customer will be based on personal preference and situation. Sam in 4B will probably be best in a hybrid. Tracy who lives in the single family townhouse with assigned parking and a 13 mile commute would probably find that the cost of operation of an EV is much better than for a similarly priced ICE model. Where does Camaro land in this picture? Not sure. There’s room for at least one more cycle of ICE, with or without a hybrid assist. Unless GM wants to make a performance / styling statement with an EV Camaro.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

That would make it a completely DIFFERENT car, now wouldn't it?

There will be pushback from the diehard Camaro community if GM even thinks about making a Camaro - even a singular trim or version - with so much as electric assist or hybrid.

If you don't understand that, consider the fact that the current Camaro design was made with significant input from the Camaro community.

If GM goes away from that, and decides to ignore the Camaro community, they're going to get the wrath of God.

It must be either kept 100% internal combustion 4 stroke gasoline engine and ONLY ICE with ZERO alternative assist, or the nameplate MUST be retired.

There is no other option.

Camaro sales are in the dumper. The car is going to have to change to sell.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

Camaro sales are in the dumper. The car is going to have to change to sell.

The reason sales are in the dumper have zero to do with electric motor garbage and everything to do with the perceived poor visibility, lack of back seat space, and higher than should be sticker price.

I don’t have a problem with the issues I listed (well, I did have to play hardball on price), but I understand that people do. They were the main issues with the 6th gen all along.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

The reason sales are in the dumper have zero to do with electric motor garbage and everything to do with the perceived poor visibility, lack of back seat space, and higher than should be sticker price.

I don’t have a problem with the issues I listed (well, I did have to play hardball on price), but I understand that people do. They were the main issues with the 6th gen all along.

Yes, this confirms my point. Any discussion of ICE v. EV which doesn't take into account that the hypothetical EV Camaro would be overall a much better car is missing the mark. I've been on the hunt for a 6th Gen for a year at least, and my "let's take another look" test drive of a 1SS last week was not great. There is no reason for a car that big to be so cramped and claustrophobic on the inside, not to mention there isn't even a decent place to put your phone.

I may still grab one eventually for that big V8 RWD experience, but holy crap does this thing need a redesign. If an EV version comes down the road in a few years with major ergonomic improvements that still looks like a Camaro and goes fast, it'll sell. One thing GM doesn't need to do is ask "the Camaro community" to design it.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

As a Gen X'er in the Camaro community, I really think GM needs to get with Gen Z (post Millennials) and design and PRICE a Camaro for them. IMHO, most Millennials are a lost cause on this car, but Gen Z is absolutely RIPE for them if it's done to their needs/taste/pricing. It will also take years to get the new design into the marketplace and Gen Z will be the youth of the work force by then.

This plan would work for us boomers, too (I'm 58). Both ends of the age spectrum need an affordable hot rod they can see out of, I don't have a clue what GM was thinking with this design.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by SteveV

Just out of curiosity sake...

If GM were to bring back the Camaro as an Electric Vehicle in 2025, would anyone here actually buy one?

Personally, I am not interested in an electric vehicle until technology has progressed to the point that the roof of the car is solar and can recharge itself in 6 - 8 hours.

Few muscle car fans would buy it. Chevy doesn't get it if they think just speed is the fascination with cars. Its also about mechanicals, things that move and make sounds.

[pyroguy]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

Yes, this confirms my point. Any discussion of ICE v. EV which doesn't take into account that the hypothetical EV Camaro would be overall a much better car is missing the mark. I've been on the hunt for a 6th Gen for a year at least, and my "let's take another look" test drive of a 1SS last week was not great. There is no reason for a car that big to be so cramped and claustrophobic on the inside, not to mention there isn't even a decent place to put your phone.

I may still grab one eventually for that big V8 RWD experience, but holy crap does this thing need a redesign. If an EV version comes down the road in a few years with major ergonomic improvements that still looks like a Camaro and goes fast, it'll sell. One thing GM doesn't need to do is ask "the Camaro community" to design it.

I agree that there would be places where the EV would triumph over an ICE vehicle, but I don't know if they're overall a much better car. They're a hot item currently and trendy I think is more appropriate than better. Yes people like the newest, latest, greatest thing, but I think that the EV craze may slowly be starting to see some waves coming their way. The last year or two people are starting to wake up and realize that lithium isn't something that is easy to obtain, most of the power that is used to power their EV's is from fossil fuels, and that the power that is generated by "renewable" energy actually takes quite the process to build the energy collectors (windmills, solar panels, etc.) and yields a low return of energy.

Yes I think electric vehicles are going to be a big thing for the next 10 or so years, but I'm beginning to think they may not be as big of a deal as what people are making them out to be.

[Joe Remi]

"Yes I think electric vehicles are going to be a big thing for the next 10 or so years, but I'm beginning to think they may not be as big of a deal as what people are making them out to be."

I think that's wishful thinking on your part. There's no evidence manufacturers or consumers are going to decide EV is just as dirty as ICE and give up on the former.

[DC5]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

I think an updated - and massively ergonomically improved - car that looks like a Camaro and goes fast with an electric motor would save the nameplate from extinction.

I agree. GM should reimagine the Camaro. Maintain it as a relative performance bargain with sexy styling, exhilarating acceleration via electric motors, and incredible handling capability. It also needs to be reasonably practical and feature state-of-the-art technology, especially the interior.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I'm not the only one who didn't like the new GTO. You like yours, many people didn't like them at all.

The '04-06 GTO was panned for it's generic styling and very plasticy interior. Again, the chassis and drivetrain are great, no one argues about that. But it's execution was just bad.The 2010 Camaro interior wasn't very good either so it's kind of a wash. I did like the automatic forward releasing seats in the GTO though, that was a very good idea that all coupes should have adapted by now.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion. Lots of people think the Camaros are ugly. A lot think Challengers are. A lot think Mustangs are...You can go on and on here.

They were not panned for a plasticy interior. No way, not one bit. Never saw a review from 2004 that said that. I They didn't have a million options but the interior was of higher quality than any GM product I can think of from 2004. Perhaps there was a high end Cadillac that had a nicer interior, but i doubt it. Like I said, they didn't have a ton of bells and whistles and really the only option was color and transmission. Eventually you could add SAP and 18's. Biggest interior complaint is the seats are slow to move to allow people in and out of the back.

The styling was bland in my opinion, but done correctly they can look very good to my eyes.

Fun read from 2004. Cliff notes about the interior below - https://www.motortrend.com/cars/pont...4-pontiac-gto/

Surprise #3: The cabin has the sporty elegance of a BMW's. Four large analog gauges (wearing faces color-coordinated with the exterior paint) lie in a large pod behind the wheel; the dials and much of the interior are trimmed with a classy satin-nickel finish (as are the drilled pedals). The four-spoke steering wheel (with integrated audio controls) feels good in your hands and is infinitely adjustable for tilt and telescope--something we've been nagging GM to do for years. The center stack houses straightforward climate controls and that Blaupunkt audio system--a 200-watt, 10-speaker affair with in-dash six-disc CD changer. There's not a blob of bling-bling marring the cool, businesslike ambiance. Your $500 aluminum attache case will look right at home here.


Surprise #4: Fit and finish are the finest we've seen on a GM vehicle in decades. The body emits not a squeak and shimmies not a whit, parts gaps are tight and uniform (even on our preproduction pilot vehicle), the interior shapes flow smoothly into one another, and the materials are rich and handsome. Superb, beautifully stitched leather covers the wheel, the shift boot, and the seats. The seats themselves are simply spectacular, deeply bolstered for excellent support, and roomy enough to be accommodating for drivers of various sizes. Behind the front chairs are two more buckets--it takes some acrobatics to get to them (we'd like to see a power-seat advance when the front backrests are flopped forward), but once back there, adults can sit without holding their knees to their chins. (Trunk room is another issue: The GTO offers a paltry nine cubic feet of space under its bespoilered rear deck.)

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by pyroguy

I'm glad the GTO made it back too. 2 door RWD muscle car was a great idea, just poor styling made it never take off. On that same line, the G8 was a car that would have taken off had they kept Pontiac and kept the advertising up. It was a perfect competitor for the Charger and they were a hell of a lot of fun to drive, but when GM was bailed out the government made them get rid of it.

As for the SS nameplate, even Chevy admitted that they messed up slapping it on EVERYTHING. If they were going to do it they should have been serious about it and kept some serious performers. The Cobalt SS with a turbo was actually a pretty good competitor and was the predecessor to Ford's Focus ST/RS models. Had they made some AWD versions of the SS Monte Carlo, Impala, etc. they could have survived pretty well or made the SS pickup more than 0.1 second quicker to 60 than the early 90's RWD 454SS one they could have had a serious sport truck like the SRT-10 Ram.

As for the new Blazer, it does look like a SUV Camaro. The dashboard layout screams 6th gen Camaro. I doubt it's going to become a Camaro one day like the Mustang SUV, but I've been wrong before. The future is uncertain other than GM is sinking A BUNCH of money into EV's. Will they be a fad or is it the future of automobiles? Who knows. Everyone thought 3D TV's would be standard equipment and now you can't hardly find a new 3D TV to buy.

The info is all but dried up now, but they were very close to releasing a 2nd gen "new GTO" that was going to be very similar to a 2 door G8. G8's had great styling and a more modern interior, I had an 08. The GTO was a much higher quality vehicle though and was much better put together. My understanding is the SS is a lot higher quality than the G8 was, but with every option they offered but I have not driven one.

GTO - very high quality build, low options
G8 - Cheap hit a price point build, but looked good and more options
SS - Very high quality again, all the options.

[Joe Remi]

I know it's a hard drift off topic, but I was looking at an '04 GTO yesterday and the interior is quite nice. I also think the not-great-then styling has aged well into an inexpensive rwd V8 coupe you can buy as a weekend warrior now.