[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by oldman

You left out, that your driveshaft and / or axle shafts will fail due to torque load (unless you have a 1le), even then the TR6060 is rated at low 500s ft / lbs. The ample torque needs DR and a prep track to put the torque load to the ground. On 220 wear summer tires, the torque requires you to back out of it. One only has to look at the stock Zl1 times on a prep track to understand that on normal tires and the average street it is actually very hard to go high 11s. Hench GM has less gear on the ZL1.

I didn't leave anything out the OP has a 1LE which has a suspension drive train similar to a ZL1. TR6060 has handled 1000whp+ in many builds over the years. But that is a Moot point with your 220 tire wear stipulation. You won't break anything with 220 wear tires anyhow....even if it was a SS.

I will agree with




Um I think the Zl1 is a whole lot more than a supercharger, like a factory-engineered ediff and adjustable dampers, forged rims and selected tires.. etc. Vs tossing a 70+ lbs blower on the front and on top of the engine on a stock SS or 1le. Clearly a completely different scenario. Add in my primary point is heat injection and the Zl1 has a lower compression forged engine to deal with the heat load. I believe the new base V8 has less cooling too (not sure as I have a 2016). So there are weight and heat load issues that need to be mitigated. GM did that with the Zl1, we don't have an example of a LT1 based Z/28 and what that would do. Gut feeling especially for the autoX, the blower adds zero or even negative. I'd let road racers comment from here. To me say the Magi is $5300, need tune, I do my own labor so $5700 all in. I can get a LOT of autoX and / or road race bang for the $$$$, for $5700, without the added weight or heat load that should be mitigated. Actually I just realize this was a strawman argument, LOL, nobody puts a blower on a SS or 1le to roadrace or autoX, given a limited budget.

Refer to first reply, Op has a 1LE. Aside from that anybody looking to road course a SS is going to do the supporting mods to make the car handle better...SS really only needs wider wheels and tires and sway bars. It would need it anyway NA or FI so your point is kind of Moot at best on this one.

On the 1st to 2nd shift the OP has a M6 the engine never sees below 5000 RPM, all the smaller PD fall off boost at this level so there ain't all that much area under the curve. I'm sure there are many normal street driving times that a PD is a pleasure to drive, there are many times that a blast through the gears on a M6 and with a high compression V8 and cam that is a pleasure too. They are different driving experiences and while I would enjoy a LT4 conversion on my DD, I think I enjoy the 7200 RPM M6 row through the gears which you just don't get with the stock cam. So each offers a driving experience and on a DD the PD is probably going to be used more. As my area gets built-in I'm able to use the cam less... need to move to Waco. I will add the new heavier and more expensive PD carry boost higher into the 5000 to 6600 RPM range or just buy a Centri that produces power in the 5000 to 6600 RPM range that can be applied to the street with 220 wear street tires.

Yea with a cam, valvetrain, and IM or Centri upgrade. Stock M6 car, the engine dips below 5k rpm on the shift. You don't live above 5k rpm on a road course car anyway. You need strong mid range for a road course car.

So yep a small PD has great WOT torque and you maybe able to workout scenarios in your head where you can use WOT torque on the street between 3000 and 5000 RPM. But a NA cam package has a great pull and sound to 6800 on stock engine and 7200+ on build engine that adds a whole lot of fun in many many situations. They are different driving experience so if I drinking Starbucks on my M6 and don't want to downshift, the PD is going to give me the torque I need to do things. But if I like the lay slowly on the throttle thru first cause even STOCK the M6 is traction limited, bang into 2nd, lay into the throttle bang into 3rd with a 7200 high compression v8, um no your PD can't deliver that on the stock long block, I will say that the bigger maggi might be able to do it as it holds boost to a much higher RPM. So they are different. I don't have a PD or auto so maybe that is the cat's meow for many or most people. I have a M6 and if given a choice I'd take a cam over boost period. My first blower cam as a Pray designed package with cam, heads, tune, so I never did a Centri on stock long block, nor the new 2650. I'm sure any FI on the stock long block is great but at least for the 2300 mentioned nor the LT4 offer the take notice idle and the thrill of 7000+ shifts. They are different driving experience period.

For the OP, he wouldn't want a size cam that will run 7200+ for a road course car. I am not sure where you get this idea that the 2300 doesn't carry power and are all torque...even the LT4 carries power fine, it's just flat and not linear. Why are all the factory flagship hot rods using PD superchargers instead of Centri's if they are the cats meow?

Once again as I've been saying for a while now the Centri offers to my mind a better thru the gear experience, I base it on a M6, the new 2650 probably offers the same experience but that is 3 years after the Centri's offer. I don't hang out on the ZL1 forum but I'm sure there are few PD 1.7 to 2650 upgrades that are very happy with the new found top-end torque and power on a near stock longblock / exhaust etc. So if it were me, I'd probably not recommend a 2300 or 1.7 unless it was REALLY cheap and /or you just like to drink coffee on a M6. The initial 2650 dynos are that impressive, it is holding boost longer even on stock size cams. I would predict there will be many more 1.7 and 2300 second hand as people experience what the D1x Centri is already providing, boost at the top end where it is actually used 5000 to 7000+. Same area where the cam and heads guys were too.

Road Course cars need a strong mid-range. They don't live above 5000rpm.

This is the number one reason for me, after all that is said and done to go with a supercharger. You can have all the power that you want and literally have a stock exhaust. It is very hard for me to describe how LOUD a large cam, LT, no-cat car is even with the stock muffler and STUPID loud with many of these aftermarket 3" systems. STUPID loud.

I did not try large cam, stock headers, CA deletes, Bolra 60608 dual resonator in the center, I'm sure it is down 30 to 40 HP over the LT NA, but it might be usable as a DD.




This is untrue. Here I have direct experience, from FBO to FBO + built engine. The car sounds bad action at idle, but in gear, it sounds and drives and responds like stock. This is a large high compression V8, it responds well to cam, heads, headers... it just does. I had a LS1 and this is a completely different engine. Stage 1 cams BTW it is hard to tell at idle. So drives like stock, but stock does not pull to 7200 RPM.

I have had a couple high compression heads/cam cars and it is very true. My LS1 pulled to 7200rpm all day and it drove really well but not stock.

From your lips to god's ear. I too lived over the LS1 valvetrain failure. I said that to Pray on this board 3 years ago. You would think I would learn



For the most part, 11.5 CR will carry most cams we are talking about, car drives fine NA, more than fine, spanking fun. Others here too have 11.5 with some pretty big cams. Stage 2+ and bigger I agree with you and 12.2 and / or a stroker would help out. So from my experience, this engine can take a stage II and perform well.
I agree but With the availability of cheap high octane fuel(E85), I would never do a NA build and not raise compression.

True dat



I believe Pray went 10.1 with his ported factory heads, IM, TB.
He also had a bolt-on only car go bottom 10's... Just because the Stock IM isn't optimal for a heads/cam car doesn't mean you can not run a decent time. I believe he has taken the same setup into the 9's with a hi-ram.


true dat




I can install a cam into my car AFM with a spec single spring in one day and cost about $550 all in. Say the small compcam above. The only issue is what beehive to run and an BTR LS6 spring 100lbs at 1.8 and 285 lbs at 1.240 or .560 lift ($70) may work That is what the hobby is all about. Now you are talking trading in the car. :confused0068
Great...but you are not going to come anywhere close to 530whp on stock exhaust with that setup. That lingenfelter cam you linked made 503whp with ported heads and catless headers. I contacted them about their heads cam package. That is why I agreed with getting a Maggie....the Maggie would hit his power goals with no other mods. With his limitations, he won't get there NA.

I never said anything about trading in my car.

replies are in bold.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I agree with most of your point, except the fact that some guys prefer a lighter NA setup, and OP has a 1le so his rotating assembly is very similar to a zl1.

I love high rpm NA setups..but with the OP limitations, it's not the right direction imo.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I agree with keeping an SS 1le NA but most of what you noted as special about the zl1 on top of the engine/OD, OPs car has; ediff, dampers, forged wheels, and same tires.. but the zl1s dampers were obviously tuned for the extra weight and the diff extra power/torque I assume.

I was addressing the general just blot a supercharger to the LT1 ENGINE fixes the car for all occasions.

It is the engine that is prone to heat, the ZL1 has lower comp forged piston, stronger rods, crank, head casting, VALVES!!!!, these are not minor issues to address. As you mention the ZL1 is also a tuned package. I'm not a big roadracer my bro is. I don't know how much faster a ZL1 vs a 1LE in a road race, gut feeling, $6500 injected into a NA 1le, it will be complete blow out, I'll let the forum figure which one is getting blown, pun intended.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Also I don't think gm put less gear in the zl1... ss 2.77 vs zl1 2.85, and 3.73s on both m6s.

The strength of the trans is directly related to the gear ratio and the spacing between the mainshaft and the countershaft, as the gear numeric ratio increased one gear gets smaller and it has to leverage a bigger gear the torque rating of the trans plunges as the sqr of the change.

Here is the actual Tremec doc:https://www.tremec.com/anexos/TREMEC_TR-6060_1017.pdf

I believe the 1le has the same trans as a SS so that torque limit is 560 ft-lbs.
This is from the dudes that make the transmission. So this same trans on the 2015 ZL1 was at the engine's design max torque:
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/che...2015.tab1.html

When the Lt4 came out it required a stronger trans:
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482277


go back to Tremec the guys that make the trans and sure enough the 2.29 first gear trans is rated at 650 ft - lbs.

And 2.29 Zl1 is way less torque multiplication like 60 ft pounds at the tailshaft. SS is 2.66
GM left it that way as the stock LT4 can easily destroy the back tires in 1st gear.

Looks like the ZLE comes with the 2.26, probably for a closer road race spacing.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

replies are in bold.
I love high rpm NA setups..but with the OP limitations, it's not the right direction imo.

But a bolt on pd blower is?

Clearly I’m addressing engine heat issues he has a lt1, and imo a blower on stock lt1 does not equal a Great once in a while road course car.

I went with regular cam and now all with top drawer everything including valves. that said I think an AFM cam (keep the heads on) can deliver what he is asking for with supporting mods. Which can be added later. Is it the right direction? Dunno obviously I think Pray ported heads and a real cam and kit is the "right way to go".

That said I would say the largest comp cam 224 /236 118 LSA would work with a BTR beehive spring kit
https://www.briantooleyracing.com/bt...pring-kit.html

I'd do LT with cats, rotofab, E85, tune, pray ported IM and TB. I think it would hit about 500 WHP SAE dynojet on his M6. This fullfills all his request. A PD supercharger does not.

Now if he gave a price and said spec a cam, and say no E85 around. stage I for road race say 112 LSA for the broad torque, Pray ported: heads, IM, TB, rotofab, BTR cam kit.

This is because of two reasons:
1) I'm worried about AFM lifter collapse, even with a mild spring, TxSpeed no longer markets theirs and they removed their AFM writeup which basically say only their AFM cam works and everyone elses will fail. Well since they don't market it anymore I would assume even their grind has issues. Ligenfelter does not appear to market their setup either, the still sell the GT30 AFM though.
2) Porting the heads provides cheap and dependable HP, I like cheap and I like dependable, so ported heads are a win / win, Pray knows his stuff.


That said I see nothing wrong with somebody wanting to try a comp cam and for the two smaller grinds stock valve springs may actually work. The bigger grind see my BTR above, bucks down I'd do the number II grind, CA deletes, cut box and green filter and a tune. 6800 fuel cut, get a little more peak HP and a little cam / exhaust sound.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

I have an 18' SS 1LE. Just a light NA build for HPDE events and general fun. Not extreme barely drive able but moderate I guess? Strong lobe sound would be nice. I'd say 500 - 530 whp I'd be happy with. I can't remove the stock headers or cats.

I have no idea even what a good manufacturer is. Also, this spring I'm putting a AWE track exhaust on with link pipes just to make it louder IDK if that factors into anything

This is the op, does a PD blower address anything he asking for? NO

He wants a cam and not pulling the heads, I answered. Ligenfelter’s setup has no headers IM, TB, etc so he can make some ok hp with a cam with a lope that he wants. I think m6 FBO and a AFM Cam can make 500 WHP

[oldman]

Originally Posted by kingLT1

I am not sure where you get this idea that the 2300 doesn't carry power and are all torque...even the LT4 carries power fine, it's just flat and not linear. Why are all the factory flagship hot rods using PD superchargers instead of Centri's if they are the cats meow?

Sure post on a thread in the FI forum. I would like to see boost curves on small PD vs RPM. Let's see how much boost a small PD is making from 5000 to 7200 RPM. I wonder how much boost and at what temps these small PD are "carrying torque just fine." We all know that induced engine heat is bad for a high CR V8, especially under race conditions.

Never said that the centri is the "cat's meow". I did say bolting on a small PD onto a LT1 is not the fix all that it is made out to be. Even more so there is nothing wrong in speculation want a AFM compatible cam can do with no, some or full supporting mods. Superchevy got 63 RWHP cam and filter. That ain't bad.

[oldman]

I didn't leave anything out the OP has a 1LE which has a suspension drive train similar to a ZL1. TR6060 has handled 1000whp+ in many builds over the years. But that is a Moot point with your 220 tire wear stipulation. You won't break anything with 220 wear tires anyhow....even if it was a SS.

As already noted I was replying to the old sad saw of bolting on a PD blower fixes all problems on a LT1.

Now to your comment since we are now talking about a bolton PD blower and slicks going 10s. Hmm, I don't see blower and slicks on a LT1 doing 10s. There seems to be a lot more mods than that from fuel to custom tune. Remember here you already said this is a KNOWN M6 setup. I'd be intrested in a PDB only (I'll even toss in custom tune as we are having a conversation, and we both know can tunes suck), slicks doing 10s with a M6, that would be great, to my mind this is not the norm, but I don't pretend to know all the is about PDB.

Now let me address the TR6060 in specific and the LT1 based engine and drivetrain in general.
1) Tremec says 550 ft lbs is the limit of the 1le or SS M6, 650 ft lbs for the Zl1. Clearly at some point and over a period of overload 1st gear will fail. So despite anecdotal evidence via the internet about 1000 WHP on stock 1LE TR6060 is not backed up be the actual mfg of the trans. From my experience the higher the overload, repeated offten, leads to a quick failure of component. That does not negate that a stock LT1 based TR6060 can't deliver 1000 WHP... it just asked the more important question of how long?

2) The LT1 engine is significantly more fragile under boost vs the LT4, GM did a whole bunch to the LT4, all the crank, valve, piston failures in the LT1 had to be known by GM as these are the areas that are upgraded... go figure. GM does not put titanium valves in an engine if the plain valves "work". Same goes to the rolled fillet crank.... down the list.

I would since we are having a conversation, like to see how many M6 LT1s with PDB as the only mod into the 10s (slicks prep track). That would be cool. I like it when the Camaro is faster than I think is possible and / or the norm, at least none show up on a cursory inspection of the quick list.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Stock M6 car, the engine dips below 5k rpm on the shift. You don't live above 5k rpm on a road course car anyway. You need strong mid range for a road course car.

The OP said nothing about dominating the road course, he wants
1) cam without removing the heads
2) above 500 WHP
3) a lope

Something that I have addressed and continue to address.


If he said I need a setup to dominate the road course.. I would not even bother postings as I don't road race in general. So maybe a pdb only bolton is the winning scenario. I merely point out that this is a huge heat load on the LT1 and this will cost a heck a lot more than a AFM cam and tune.

Now let me address mid-range, completely off-topic for the OP, but I'd spec a roadrace cam depending on mods as something like 226 / 234 with a 112 LSA installed straighup.
The LSA would bring a huge chunk of midrange power.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I never said anything about trading in my car.

OK so you are not proposing buying a car when you posted

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Then if you really weigh the options, currently if you mod a SS past Bolt-on status, it puts you up in ZL1 territory based on the current market and what used ZL1's are selling for. You can find a used ZL1 with low miles in the 45k range. To make the same power NA with a SS you are going to have almost into your SS what you can buy a ZL1 for.

My bad then.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Great...but you are not going to come anywhere close to 530whp on stock exhaust with that setup.

What are you talking about, wherein my $700 cam change did I cite HP or supporting mods I am then as now merely pointing out that a cam change as cheap as $700 does not go into the realm of PDB or sell your car buy a ZL1 area of expense and time.


I've already noted the biggest benefit of FI is the ability to have a stock exahust or at least one that is not bruttal.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

That lingenfelter cam you linked made 503whp with ported heads and catless headers. I contacted them about their heads cam package.

Great, thanks for the information and I'll add in the OP said 500+ WHP so that makes his list too. The Lingenfelter cam is a lot milder than the comp AFM cam.

Given the OP parameters, the big comp AFM cam, RotoFab, ported TB and manifold, E85, cat back, tune could very well make 500 WHP on a dyno. Nowhere did I say what he wants is optimal. But you contend that it is not doable. And yes he said 500 WHP up... not your can't reach 530 WHP.

So cam only longblock stock header maybe cat is it plausible to hit 500 WHP...probably so. Is it smart or cheap, maybe, maybe not.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

That is why I agreed with getting a Maggie....the Maggie would hit his power goals with no other mods. With his limitations, he won't get there NA.

The Maggie + tune adds weight and heat, he reaches two of his goals, maybe his other goals on the CAM CHANGE THREAD of the goals is to not add heat and weight to his DD, once in a while road race car. Plus the Maggie + tune is a one time expense that is probably a whole lot more than say he does a cam and tune only which reaches many of his goals including lope. Maybe the huge savings in both weight and expense and heat load is worth it to him. Maybe he wants to do headers and cats down the road and pay for the $110 going rate for a re-tune. Clealy and once again the PDB is not what he is asking for and that $6000 up probably a lot more if the shop is going to do it, is a lot more than at a minimum say +$1000 DIY cam and tune. The install cost is close to the same.

Face it the bolt-on maggie has little place on this thread as it is addressing NOTHING the OP asked for.

Let me address this 530 WHP, here is the OP:

Originally Posted by HouseStark

Strong lobe sound would be nice. I'd say 500 - 530 whp I'd be happy with.

the biggest comp cam probably will yield both. You just pushed 530 whp as you knew it would greatly undercut your case that a PDB is the best solution.

[oldman]

To sum this all up. The only dynos that I know of with AFM cams:
1) Superchevy and the got 63 WHP with largest comp AFM cam and air filter
2) Ligenfelter with a much smaller cam claims 550 engine with heads, filter, tune say 475 wheel. GT30 cam... smooth idle
3) KingLT said same package with LT put out 503 to the wheels.

It looks like TSp no longer markets theirs... red flag to my mind

General wisdom is pull the heads.. you should port them while they are out. Run good lifters, it is hard to overcam these cars and you should probably look at a minimum 22x duration. Also everything has to be spec performance, springs, retainer, pushrods, trunion. From me and GM, for FI, on LT1 the valves are suspect you need Manley ProFlows. Only with a real cam and ported heads are you going to see gains NA.

What I'd like to see is a AFM cam say 224 / 234 120 LSA 550 lift 35 percent fuel lobe made as a mild FI upgrade for stock LT4 or for LT1 with FI.

I'd like to see a full bolt-on AFM cam dyno with ported IM,TB and E85.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by oldman

The OP said nothing about dominating the road course, he wants
1) cam without removing the heads
2) above 500 WHP
3) a lope

Something that I have addressed and continue to address.


If he said I need a setup to dominate the road course.. I would not even bother postings as I don't road race in general. So maybe a pdb only bolton is the winning scenario. I merely point out that this is a huge heat load on the LT1 and this will cost a heck a lot more than a AFM cam and tune.

Now let me address mid-range, completely off-topic for the OP, but I'd spec a roadrace cam depending on mods as something like 226 / 234 with a 112 LSA installed straighup.
The LSA would bring a huge chunk of midrange power.

He can't hit his goals with a AFM cam.

Originally Posted by oldman

OK so you are not proposing buying a car when you posted



My bad then.

No. That was for the OP to consider before he goes down the rabbit hole with modding his car. Pretty obvious I thought.

Originally Posted by oldman

What are you talking about, wherein my $700 cam change did I cite HP or supporting mods I am then as now merely pointing out that a cam change as cheap as $700 does not go into the realm of PDB or sell your car buy a ZL1 area of expense and time.


I've already noted the biggest benefit of FI is the ability to have a stock exahust or at least one that is not bruttal.



Great, thanks for the information and I'll add in the OP said 500+ WHP so that makes his list too. The Lingenfelter cam is a lot milder than the comp AFM cam.

Given the OP parameters, the big comp AFM cam, RotoFab, ported TB and manifold, E85, cat back, tune could very well make 500 WHP on a dyno. Nowhere did I say what he wants is optimal. But you contend that it is not doable. And yes he said 500 WHP up... not your can't reach 530 WHP.

So cam only longblock stock header maybe cat is it plausible to hit 500 WHP...probably so. Is it smart or cheap, maybe, maybe not.




The Maggie + tune adds weight and heat, he reaches two of his goals, maybe his other goals on the CAM CHANGE THREAD of the goals is to not add heat and weight to his DD, once in a while road race car. Plus the Maggie + tune is a one time expense that is probably a whole lot more than say he does a cam and tune only which reaches many of his goals including lope. Maybe the huge savings in both weight and expense and heat load is worth it to him. Maybe he wants to do headers and cats down the road and pay for the $110 going rate for a re-tune. Clealy and once again the PDB is not what he is asking for and that $6000 up probably a lot more if the shop is going to do it, is a lot more than at a minimum say +$1000 DIY cam and tune. The install cost is close to the same.

Face it the bolt-on maggie has little place on this thread as it is addressing NOTHING the OP asked for.

Let me address this 530 WHP, here is the OP:



the biggest comp cam probably will yield both. You just pushed 530 whp as you knew it would greatly undercut your case that a PDB is the best solution.

Ok so here you are preaching this AFM cam when nobody runs them for a good reason. Factory AFM lifters are worse then LS7. You had a failure with LS7 lifters with your build but you are suggesting a AFM cam?

2 guys just posted builds that barely made 500whp with headers, one had stage 3 cam, the other had heads and made 520whp. A AFM cam only setup on stock exhaust wouldn't make more then 470whp. It would be lucky to make the power of a FBO car.

I didn't under cut a anything, the OP said 530whp.


The Maggie is a far better solution then a AFM cam that is FACT. 7 psi is barely working a 2300 so heat wouldn't be any issue. The added weight could be mitigated elsewhere. That is the only reason why I agreed with another member that suggested it first. If the OP was willing to approach the NA build correctly then I wouldn't of mentioned a blower. Anybody that thinks rationally can see my POV on this.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

He can't hit his goals with a AFM cam.

I think he can get or get very close to 500 WHP FBO-(LT) + cam. SuperChevy got 63 WHP with cam and air filter, that is WAY more than any LT dyno gain. His other goal, the topic of the tread is a cam with lope that is drivable. So for grins cam + FBO - LT yeilds 480 WHP... I think per his once in a while roadrace and he wants good driving characteristics.. would be JUST FINE and he "would be happy with".

Originally Posted by KingLT1

No. That was for the OP to consider before he goes down the rabbit hole with modding his car. Pretty obvious I thought.

Like I said, you suggest that he buy a new car cause he is interested in a cam change.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Ok so here you are preaching this AFM cam when nobody runs them for a good reason.

I count no less than 6 times that this is probably not optimal and noted at LEAST TWICE that Texas Speed no longer markets their AFM cam. Preaching what? It ain't like I'm making money selling.

This is the internet, given what he wants, I'm giving him the best advice that I can, minimum or stock valve springs on the smaller cams and probably the BTR Lt1 beehive probably would work. Do I know? Heck no. I will note that GM is committed to AFM and even the LT2 with longer lift and duration retains AFM. To my mind the stock cam is very small and their must be alternatives. Musing on the ability to retain AFM is not "preaching". I think I well laid out what I would do, I think I clearly stated that Texas Speed used to market an AFM cam and they no longer do. Same same for Ligenfelter AFAIK.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Factory AFM lifters are worse then LS7. You had a failure with LS7 lifters with your build but you are suggesting a AFM cam?

I was shy going into an above .600 lift cam. I was going to pull the motor anyway and thought I could "get by" The lifter failed within 1000 miles of when the engine was coming out. Just luck of the draw. But this is apples and oranges. A LS7 lifter failure on a much steeper ramp rate, much higher lift application than it was designed, more RPM to boot, is not the same as an AFM cam with stock or near stock valve springs, with close to stock lift, with stock or close to stock fuel cut.



Already noted that the general rule of thumb is to pull the heads to port and add real cam. Don't know why you are skipping over this. Not like I sleep with my AFM lifters

Originally Posted by KingLT1

2 guys just posted builds that barely made 500whp with headers, one had stage 3 cam, the other had heads and made 520whp. A AFM cam only setup on stock exhaust wouldn't make more then 470whp. It would be lucky to make the power of a FBO car.

Seems you like to state things in the definitive. The guy is asking about a cam with a lope that is easy to drive in a once in a while roadrace car. Your racing dynos...

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I didn't under cut a anything, the OP said 530whp.

I've already posted his actual quote and he said he would be happy with 500 to 530WHP, I'm pointing out your insistence on 530 undercuts your shaky case that FBO-header + cam can't make the 500 WHP. As already stated big deal if it does not. It does make two goals: lope and easy driving. Clearly GM went to a bigger AFM cam on the LT2. Which um actually does road race. Clearly 63 WHP gain in SuperChevy would add dramatically to his three goals: increase in HP, lope, and easy to drive. Already noted that AFM cams will run into issues at some point with RPM and / or stiff valve springs.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

The Maggie is a far better solution then a AFM cam that is FACT.

As noted, the guy wants a bolt in cam for lope that can drive, probably expects too much HP, but the better solution is put a PDB on it. Here is his direct quote:

"Just a light NA build" don't see where an expensive heavy heat injector comes into play. I would assume he would be willing to give up a few HP on his complete guestimate as long as the cam was drivable and had a nice sound.


The added weight, expense ($7000 up not including labor), and heat injection does nothing for his other goals. I already said it is quite possible, DIY to cam this engine for $430 on the smaller cams, and $750 on the larger cams.

As an aside, as I mentioned, it is quite possible to spec a blower friendly AFM cam with factory lift, more duration and a 3x% cam lobe for sub $500. Which should yield factory like dependability.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

7 psi is barely working a 2300 so heat wouldn't be any issue. The added weight could be mitigated elsewhere.

The tread is about a $430 cam what don't you get... now we are into the back seat delete, lithium ion battery, feather weight rims, leave the old lady at home cause you want to suggest spending upwards of $7000 which does NOTHING for the goal of having a streetable cam with a little lope.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

That is the only reason why I agreed with another member that suggested it first. If the OP was willing to approach the NA build correctly then I wouldn't of mentioned a blower. Anybody that thinks rationally can see my POV on this.

I did not know there was a correct way. I'll go one step further and say it is completely ludicrous to say an AFM cam that is "larger" can't yield factor-like dependability as GM just released a bigger AFM cam for the LT2. Does the current selection of aftermarket AFM do that? Dunno. I know of nobody that has one, and what spring, and RPM would all contribute to longevity. As stated a stock lift AFM cam with more duration and a bigger fuel lobe would indeed be helpful on many builds, I would admit is mainly for the fuel lobe.

IMO, see the opinion, because I, nor you have an engine reliability lab running in the back yard, think a reasonable AFM cam, with reasonable valve springs, with reasonable RPM would be far more long-lived then vendor recommended "correct NA built" of .635 up lift, quick ramp, super-stiff twin springs, NO MATTER WHAT LIFTER is put into the engine. Will a AFM cam make the same power as a regular cam? nope. Given sub .600 lift would a regular cam with real lifters probably last a whole lot longer? Yep probably so (you and I are copasetic on this point). Will a mild AFM cam and mild or stock springs out last .63x, fast ramp cam NO MATTER WHAT LIFTER is used? IMO it would by a significant margin.

Do I think there is such a thing as the "correct way to build NA?" nope. I think it is completely legitimate and in fact fun, this is a hobby, after all, to spec a cam that can perform well and have longevity and be fun to drive and have lope. Not this near-constant should have gone blower yarn. Outside of the LT1, I would assume there are lots of truck owners that are putting AFM compatible cams into their rides. I'm not a trucker nor hang out on the trucker forums. So who knows maybe these AFM cams are yielding reasonable usage before failure. I don't know, I don't think you know either.

Does bolt a PDB blower belong on a cam thread, probably not.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by oldman

I was addressing the general just blot a supercharger to the LT1 ENGINE fixes the car for all occasions.

It is the engine that is prone to heat, the ZL1 has lower comp forged piston, stronger rods, crank, head casting, VALVES!!!!, these are not minor issues to address. As you mention the ZL1 is also a tuned package. I'm not a big roadracer my bro is. I don't know how much faster a ZL1 vs a 1LE in a road race, gut feeling, $6500 injected into a NA 1le, it will be complete blow out, I'll let the forum figure which one is getting blown, pun intended.





The strength of the trans is directly related to the gear ratio and the spacing between the mainshaft and the countershaft, as the gear numeric ratio increased one gear gets smaller and it has to leverage a bigger gear the torque rating of the trans plunges as the sqr of the change.

Here is the actual Tremec doc:https://www.tremec.com/anexos/TREMEC_TR-6060_1017.pdf

I believe the 1le has the same trans as a SS so that torque limit is 560 ft-lbs.
This is from the dudes that make the transmission. So this same trans on the 2015 ZL1 was at the engine's design max torque:
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/che...2015.tab1.html

When the Lt4 came out it required a stronger trans:
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482277


go back to Tremec the guys that make the trans and sure enough the 2.29 first gear trans is rated at 650 ft - lbs.

And 2.29 Zl1 is way less torque multiplication like 60 ft pounds at the tailshaft. SS is 2.66
GM left it that way as the stock LT4 can easily destroy the back tires in 1st gear.

Looks like the ZLE comes with the 2.26, probably for a closer road race spacing.

You wrote a lot man but I wasn't saying anything about the lt1, internals, or cooling. Simply stating some of the things you said the zl1 one had over the ss (tires, wheels, suspension, elsd) are not so regarding the ss 1le, except for obviously the lt4.

You also said the zl1 has less gear than the ss, usually when people say that with out being specific they're talking about rear end gearing not gear by gear in the trans but you're right the ss first gear is definately more aggressive.

However that is wrong about the zl1 1le having a different first gear than the zl1. I believe only 6th gear is different, it's shorter and can actually be used for acceleration vs the regular zl1s super tall economy first gear.

Before you quote the table in the thread link you provided that says the zl1 has a 2.29 and the zle a 2.26 1st gear, note that it would claim the zle has a taller 6th gear which is obviously not right.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

You wrote a lot man but I wasn't saying anything about the lt1, internals, or cooling. Simply stating some of the things you said the zl1 one had over the ss (tires, wheels, suspension, elsd) are not so regarding the ss 1le, except for obviously the lt4.

Yep I'm clear on that.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

You also said the zl1 has less gear than the ss, usually when people say that with out being specific they're talking about rear end gearing not gear by gear in the trans but you're right the ss first gear is definately more aggressive.

The LT1 trans is rated at about 550 ft-lbs is the only fact needed for the discussion. The Zl1 is rated about 650 ft-lbs.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake

However that is wrong about the zl1 1le having a different first gear than the zl1. I believe only 6th gear is different, it's shorter and can actually be used for acceleration vs the regular zl1s super tall economy first gear.

Then I stand corrected, as it is was merely an aside, to the torque rating of the trans.