[6spdhyperblue]

Did you do the headers yet?

[oldman]

Originally Posted by ssmofo

Buy a Maggi 2300

Depends on what you want, FI is a slippery slope to big $$$. Also I'm not a fan of FI on autox or road race especially on a stock engine, I see no issues with a mild cam on stock engine though in the roadrace application. IMO, the FI in this application is just a weight and heat generator, while NA from bolt-ons to mild cam to 3/4 build is a nice balanced package.

So saying or thinking FI is the cat's meow ain't true and especially on the street with street tires I see NO advantage of a FI to any legal speed. No I don't buy the instant torque, as a properly setup NA (I and the OP have M6) is going to put out MORE than enough HP / torque under any reasonable scenario. I'll leave it to the road race autoX guys for their feelings on NA vs FI. I don't like FI in this application because of heat, weight and complexity.

FI has its place, and I'm FI, but NA does work and work well, it is fun, it provides a nice street driven machine. I was NA while braking in my motor and this is with my own shadetree tune. A built NA engine with large cam on the M6 is a phenomenal machine. It reminds me of highschool and my DZ 302 Camaro with Muncie.

I'd like to see a true street shootout with 220 wear summer tires, gut feeling there would be many near stock A8 NA cars doing better than we think.

Now for the street, I would have been completely happy with NA or supercharged. If I go for a C8, I'd probably do a built NA on my Camaro and may keep it or sell it at that point. I figure everything I know and have learned maybe useful on the C8. We are already talking about ways to hotrod the C8 (even with the GM "locked" engine and trans controllers).

[Juiced1]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

I appreciate the info everyone and suggested guys to get in contact with. So in short Cams are expensive and will make the car not street legal to get enough power to justify them? I need to make sure it still passes Inspection. Ohio has the very annoying E-Check such a cash grab scheme for the state.

Modding your car has never been cheap. A cam kit/dod delete will run you around $1100-1200 if you order it complete with everything. Cam, springs, lifters, pushrods, bolts, dod plugs and gaskets.



You'll also want to add long tube headers. Running a cam without long tubes kind of defeats the purpose.



I did a quick search on your E-Check and I don't see much to worry about. A good tune will allow you to pass without issue. It's only a obd2 scan.



Our stage 2 package has everything you need to go from stock to being cammed. It includes all the cam/dod components, intake and long tube headers. The package starts at $2025 shipped and $4025 installed and dyno tuned. This should put you in the 500rwhp range depending on the cam selection. We have a few options that check all the boxes you mentioned earlier.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by 6spdhyperblue

Did you do the headers yet?

Me? I've had two other headers on my currently stock header car: 1 and 7/8 and 2" Kooks, both cat and uncatted. I have tried more than 20 combinations of exhaust on my NA and FI setup.

I will try this: stock header, CA front cat deletes, rear 02 move to in back of factory 2nd cat, Borla 60608 twin resonator, stock from there back.

My issue is I don't want it loud. I'd give up 50 to 100 HP just to have it quite. I have clips of my car and even with a completely stock exhaust it is an animal.

[Sales@Phastek]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

Ok, I'm confused and lost. So, what is a good cam manufacturer for our cars? How much should they cost? Can anyone comment on what they spend for the cam, tuner dyno costs? Should I buy into additional components to support it?

We would also recommend getting your build plans mapped out before picking a cam to reduce an potential future headaches.
let me know if you see anything on our site for your build you might be interested in or if you are fixed on an item/items we are not currently listing I can look into special ordering it for you.


-Sean


Click >>Here<< for cam options!

[oldman]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

I appreciate the info everyone and suggested guys to get in contact with. So in short Cams are expensive and will make the car not street legal to get enough power to justify them? I need to make sure it still passes Inspection. Ohio has the very annoying E-Check such a cash grab scheme for the state.

There is no relationship to a cam and "street legal" outside of CARB and California.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a cam, I based it on you not wanting to remove the heads, which need to be removed to delete the AFM lifters. So if you want a cam and don't know anything about AFM or to delete them, sounds like Juice will set you up for $4000, my only advice would be to make sure you have everything you want before the cam or you will have to pay for the retune.

For me the bigger cam was just too loud with my LT to deal with as a DD.



large cam, LT, cat, stock cat back

[Vrodviddy]

Originally Posted by kropscamaro16

you not gonna get 500-530 with just a cam and tune and no headers or e85 or head work

Very true. barely broke 500 with even all that. stage 3 cam, headers, intake, ported heads, etc. 520 when running ethanol gas. 500 without.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by ssmofo

Buy a Maggi 2300

I am going to agree here. If you just do the base package with 7 psi, you will makes 550/550 and not have to change anything else to the car. That power level will be manageable and it will still drive like stock. Throw a set of drag radials on the rear and go run 10's. Car will still be civil, quiet, and a sleeper. PD also works well for road course...look at the ZL1 for example.

You will spend almost the same amount to go NA to make the same peak power with less under the curve, the car will be louder because it will need exhaust mods to maximize the gains. The car isn't going to drive like stock. Coming from years of experience with LS, I see some things that raises a brow.

1) A lot of these cams on the market are right on the edge of max lift that I would run with a stock rocker. .639 lift is pushing the limits of a stock style rocker arm before it starts side loading the valve. I would probably consider the TSP stock style roller tip which adds cost and complexity because now you need to measure for proper push rod length. Even stock, factory heads have had some valve guide issues as is...not sure if that is the 1.8 ratio or possibly something related to core shift?

2) LS7 lifters...I am not sure why these are even offered with most of these cam kits. This lifter is not designed for high rpm use with heavy dual valve springs. It was designed around mild lobes with under .600 lift and beehive valve springs with light weight valves.

Basically what I see being marketed are cam kits that might go 10k miles before something fails.

Also keep in mind, when you install a cam, it will lose some dynamic compression even though static will be the same. static means very little in the grand scheme of things. So I wouldn't even consider a cam(unless it's very mild) without raising compression up some to get that dynamic compression back up. That is what gives you that low end throttle response and torque. The larger the cam you choose the more important this becomes.

The heads need to come off, so you might as well port them.

The factory intake manifold is meh even ported for most cam shafts past stage 1 or 2 tops. It just doesn't carry power far enough to utilize the extended rpm range of a larger cam. Even the ported MSD lacks some...these engines pick up substantially from a ported Hi ram, but you have to cut the hood or run that transformer looking copo hood.


Then if you really weigh the options, currently if you mod a SS past Bolt-on status, it puts you up in ZL1 territory based on the current market and what used ZL1's are selling for. You can find a used ZL1 with low miles in the 45k range. To make the same power NA with a SS you are going to have almost into your SS what you can buy a ZL1 for. FI on a SS will let you make about 100whp more before it gets really expensive to go further, plus a ZL1 has stronger rotating assembly, axles, driveshaft, diff, better brakes...etc.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

I appreciate the info everyone and suggested guys to get in contact with. So in short Cams are expensive and will make the car not street legal to get enough power to justify them? I need to make sure it still passes Inspection. Ohio has the very annoying E-Check such a cash grab scheme for the state.

I did what King is suggesting in his first paragraph above (sse my signature), and he is laying down the truth, as always.

Unless you want more, a Maggie or a Whipple with minor supporting mods will give you 540-560 rwhp, same torque, 7-8 psi boost, no issues with anything. Not sure how strictly emissions are done in Ohio, but you can even use the factory Magnuson tune that is CARB compliant, in which case inspectors will have absolutely zero to put you on the hook for. (A custom tune will be much better, of course.)

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Throw a set of drag radials on the rear and go run 10's.

You left out, that your driveshaft and / or axle shafts will fail due to torque load (unless you have a 1le), even then the TR6060 is rated at low 500s ft / lbs. The ample torque needs DR and a prep track to put the torque load to the ground. On 220 wear summer tires, the torque requires you to back out of it. One only has to look at the stock Zl1 times on a prep track to understand that on normal tires and the average street it is actually very hard to go high 11s. Hench GM has less gear on the ZL1.

I will agree with

Originally Posted by KingLT1

That power level will be manageable and it will still drive like stock.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

PD also works well for road course...look at the ZL1 for example.

Um I think the Zl1 is a whole lot more than a supercharger, like a factory-engineered ediff and adjustable dampers, forged rims and selected tires.. etc. Vs tossing a 70+ lbs blower on the front and on top of the engine on a stock SS or 1le. Clearly a completely different scenario. Add in my primary point is heat injection and the Zl1 has a lower compression forged engine to deal with the heat load. I believe the new base V8 has less cooling too (not sure as I have a 2016). So there are weight and heat load issues that need to be mitigated. GM did that with the Zl1, we don't have an example of a LT1 based Z/28 and what that would do. Gut feeling especially for the autoX, the blower adds zero or even negative. I'd let road racers comment from here. To me say the Magi is $5300, need tune, I do my own labor so $5700 all in. I can get a LOT of autoX and / or road race bang for the $$$$, for $5700, without the added weight or heat load that should be mitigated. Actually I just realize this was a strawman argument, LOL, nobody puts a blower on a SS or 1le to roadrace or autoX, given a limited budget.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

You will spend almost the same amount to go NA to make the same peak power with less under the curve,

On the 1st to 2nd shift the OP has a M6 the engine never sees below 5000 RPM, all the smaller PD fall off boost at this level so there ain't all that much area under the curve. I'm sure there are many normal street driving times that a PD is a pleasure to drive, there are many times that a blast through the gears on a M6 and with a high compression V8 and cam that is a pleasure too. They are different driving experiences and while I would enjoy a LT4 conversion on my DD, I think I enjoy the 7200 RPM M6 row through the gears which you just don't get with the stock cam. So each offers a driving experience and on a DD the PD is probably going to be used more. As my area gets built-in I'm able to use the cam less... need to move to Waco. I will add the new heavier and more expensive PD carry boost higher into the 5000 to 6600 RPM range or just buy a Centri that produces power in the 5000 to 6600 RPM range that can be applied to the street with 220 wear street tires.

So yep a small PD has great WOT torque and you maybe able to workout scenarios in your head where you can use WOT torque on the street between 3000 and 5000 RPM. But a NA cam package has a great pull and sound to 6800 on stock engine and 7200+ on build engine that adds a whole lot of fun in many many situations. They are different driving experience so if I drinking Starbucks on my M6 and don't want to downshift, the PD is going to give me the torque I need to do things. But if I like the lay slowly on the throttle thru first cause even STOCK the M6 is traction limited, bang into 2nd, lay into the throttle bang into 3rd with a 7200 high compression v8, um no your PD can't deliver that on the stock long block, I will say that the bigger maggi might be able to do it as it holds boost to a much higher RPM. So they are different. I don't have a PD or auto so maybe that is the cat's meow for many or most people. I have a M6 and if given a choice I'd take a cam over boost period. My first blower cam as a Pray designed package with cam, heads, tune, so I never did a Centri on stock long block, nor the new 2650. I'm sure any FI on the stock long block is great but at least for the 2300 mentioned nor the LT4 offer the take notice idle and the thrill of 7000+ shifts. They are different driving experience period.

Once again as I've been saying for a while now the Centri offers to my mind a better thru the gear experience, I base it on a M6, the new 2650 probably offers the same experience but that is 3 years after the Centri's offer. I don't hang out on the ZL1 forum but I'm sure there are few PD 1.7 to 2650 upgrades that are very happy with the new found top-end torque and power on a near stock longblock / exhaust etc. So if it were me, I'd probably not recommend a 2300 or 1.7 unless it was REALLY cheap and /or you just like to drink coffee on a M6. The initial 2650 dynos are that impressive, it is holding boost longer even on stock size cams. I would predict there will be many more 1.7 and 2300 second hand as people experience what the D1x Centri is already providing, boost at the top end where it is actually used 5000 to 7000+. Same area where the cam and heads guys were too.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

the car will be louder because it will need exhaust mods to maximize the gains.

This is the number one reason for me, after all that is said and done to go with a supercharger. You can have all the power that you want and literally have a stock exhaust. It is very hard for me to describe how LOUD a large cam, LT, no-cat car is even with the stock muffler and STUPID loud with many of these aftermarket 3" systems. STUPID loud.

I did not try large cam, stock headers, CA deletes, Bolra 60608 dual resonator in the center, I'm sure it is down 30 to 40 HP over the LT NA, but it might be usable as a DD.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

The car isn't going to drive like stock.

This is untrue. Here I have direct experience, from FBO to FBO + built engine. The car sounds bad action at idle, but in gear, it sounds and drives and responds like stock. This is a large high compression V8, it responds well to cam, heads, headers... it just does. I had a LS1 and this is a completely different engine. Stage 1 cams BTW it is hard to tell at idle. So drives like stock, but stock does not pull to 7200 RPM.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Coming from years of experience with LS, I see some things that raises a brow.

1) A lot of these cams on the market are right on the edge of max lift that I would run with a stock rocker. .639 lift is pushing the limits of a stock style rocker arm before it starts side loading the valve. I would probably consider the TSP stock style roller tip which adds cost and complexity because now you need to measure for proper push rod length. Even stock, factory heads have had some valve guide issues as is...not sure if that is the 1.8 ratio or possibly something related to core shift?

2) LS7 lifters...I am not sure why these are even offered with most of these cam kits. This lifter is not designed for high rpm use with heavy dual valve springs. It was designed around mild lobes with under .600 lift and beehive valve springs with light weight valves.

Basically what I see being marketed are cam kits that might go 10k miles before something fails.

From your lips to god's ear. I too lived over the LS1 valvetrain failure. I said that to Pray on this board 3 years ago. You would think I would learn

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Also keep in mind, when you install a cam, it will lose some dynamic compression even though static will be the same. static means very little in the grand scheme of things. So I wouldn't even consider a cam(unless it's very mild) without raising compression up some to get that dynamic compression back up. That is what gives you that low end throttle response and torque. The larger the cam you choose the more important this becomes.

For the most part, 11.5 CR will carry most cams we are talking about, car drives fine NA, more than fine, spanking fun. Others here too have 11.5 with some pretty big cams. Stage 2+ and bigger I agree with you and 12.2 and / or a stroker would help out. So from my experience, this engine can take a stage II and perform well.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

The heads need to come off, so you might as well port them.

True dat

Originally Posted by KingLT1

The factory intake manifold is meh even ported for most cam shafts past stage 1 or 2 tops. It just doesn't carry power far enough to utilize the extended rpm range of a larger cam.

I believe Pray went 10.1 with his ported factory heads, IM, TB.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Even the ported MSD lacks some...these engines pick up substantially from a ported Hi ram, but you have to cut the hood or run that transformer looking copo hood.

true dat

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Then if you really weigh the options, currently if you mod a SS past Bolt-on status, it puts you up in ZL1 territory based on the current market and what used ZL1's are selling for. You can find a used ZL1 with low miles in the 45k range. To make the same power NA with a SS you are going to have almost into your SS what you can buy a ZL1 for. FI on a SS will let you make about 100whp more before it gets really expensive to go further, plus a ZL1 has stronger rotating assembly, axles, driveshaft, diff, better brakes...etc.

I can install a cam into my car AFM with a spec single spring in one day and cost about $550 all in. Say the small compcam above. The only issue is what beehive to run and an BTR LS6 spring 100lbs at 1.8 and 285 lbs at 1.240 or .560 lift ($70) may work That is what the hobby is all about. Now you are talking trading in the car.

[JCunningham]

im not reading all this crap but custom cam from cam motion. comp anything is junk. you will need to replace afm lifters so heads are coming off. you will need new trunion bushings not bearings. the comp bearing kit is junk. pull the oil pan. prying on a timing chain may cause it to fail. your going to need quality torque wrenches not cheap junk. you will need to buy a thread chaser to clean the head bolt threads not a tap.

[oldman]

Don't know anyone with the comp AFM cam, Ligenfelter still makes one GT30, Texas Speed does not, the LT2 is still AFM. I think it is workable. Once you go to a real cam, everything has to be upgraded. Also, IMO, here is no lift above .600 that will be trouble free to 100,000 miles. IMO as noted.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I am going to agree here. If you just do the base package with 7 psi, you will makes 550/550 and not have to change anything else to the car. That power level will be manageable and it will still drive like stock. Throw a set of drag radials on the rear and go run 10's. Car will still be civil, quiet, and a sleeper. PD also works well for road course...look at the ZL1 for example.

You will spend almost the same amount to go NA to make the same peak power with less under the curve, the car will be louder because it will need exhaust mods to maximize the gains. The car isn't going to drive like stock. Coming from years of experience with LS, I see some things that raises a brow.

1) A lot of these cams on the market are right on the edge of max lift that I would run with a stock rocker. .639 lift is pushing the limits of a stock style rocker arm before it starts side loading the valve. I would probably consider the TSP stock style roller tip which adds cost and complexity because now you need to measure for proper push rod length. Even stock, factory heads have had some valve guide issues as is...not sure if that is the 1.8 ratio or possibly something related to core shift?

2) LS7 lifters...I am not sure why these are even offered with most of these cam kits. This lifter is not designed for high rpm use with heavy dual valve springs. It was designed around mild lobes with under .600 lift and beehive valve springs with light weight valves.

Basically what I see being marketed are cam kits that might go 10k miles before something fails.

Also keep in mind, when you install a cam, it will lose some dynamic compression even though static will be the same. static means very little in the grand scheme of things. So I wouldn't even consider a cam(unless it's very mild) without raising compression up some to get that dynamic compression back up. That is what gives you that low end throttle response and torque. The larger the cam you choose the more important this becomes.

The heads need to come off, so you might as well port them.

The factory intake manifold is meh even ported for most cam shafts past stage 1 or 2 tops. It just doesn't carry power far enough to utilize the extended rpm range of a larger cam. Even the ported MSD lacks some...these engines pick up substantially from a ported Hi ram, but you have to cut the hood or run that transformer looking copo hood.


Then if you really weigh the options, currently if you mod a SS past Bolt-on status, it puts you up in ZL1 territory based on the current market and what used ZL1's are selling for. You can find a used ZL1 with low miles in the 45k range. To make the same power NA with a SS you are going to have almost into your SS what you can buy a ZL1 for. FI on a SS will let you make about 100whp more before it gets really expensive to go further, plus a ZL1 has stronger rotating assembly, axles, driveshaft, diff, better brakes...etc.

I agree with most of your point, except the fact that some guys prefer a lighter NA setup, and OP has a 1le so his rotating assembly is very similar to a zl1.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by oldman

You left out, that your driveshaft and / or axle shafts will fail due to torque load (unless you have a 1le), even then the TR6060 is rated at low 500s ft / lbs. The ample torque needs DR and a prep track to put the torque load to the ground. On 220 wear summer tires, the torque requires you to back out of it. One only has to look at the stock Zl1 times on a prep track to understand that on normal tires and the average street it is actually very hard to go high 11s. Hench GM has less gear on the ZL1.

I will agree with




Um I think the Zl1 is a whole lot more than a supercharger, like a factory-engineered ediff and adjustable dampers, forged rims and selected tires.. etc. Vs tossing a 70+ lbs blower on the front and on top of the engine on a stock SS or 1le. Clearly a completely different scenario. Add in my primary point is heat injection and the Zl1 has a lower compression forged engine to deal with the heat load. I believe the new base V8 has less cooling too (not sure as I have a 2016). So there are weight and heat load issues that need to be mitigated. GM did that with the Zl1, we don't have an example of a LT1 based Z/28 and what that would do. Gut feeling especially for the autoX, the blower adds zero or even negative. I'd let road racers comment from here. To me say the Magi is $5300, need tune, I do my own labor so $5700 all in. I can get a LOT of autoX and / or road race bang for the $$$$, for $5700, without the added weight or heat load that should be mitigated. Actually I just realize this was a strawman argument, LOL, nobody puts a blower on a SS or 1le to roadrace or autoX, given a limited budget.



On the 1st to 2nd shift the OP has a M6 the engine never sees below 5000 RPM, all the smaller PD fall off boost at this level so there ain't all that much area under the curve. I'm sure there are many normal street driving times that a PD is a pleasure to drive, there are many times that a blast through the gears on a M6 and with a high compression V8 and cam that is a pleasure too. They are different driving experiences and while I would enjoy a LT4 conversion on my DD, I think I enjoy the 7200 RPM M6 row through the gears which you just don't get with the stock cam. So each offers a driving experience and on a DD the PD is probably going to be used more. As my area gets built-in I'm able to use the cam less... need to move to Waco. I will add the new heavier and more expensive PD carry boost higher into the 5000 to 6600 RPM range or just buy a Centri that produces power in the 5000 to 6600 RPM range that can be applied to the street with 220 wear street tires.

So yep a small PD has great WOT torque and you maybe able to workout scenarios in your head where you can use WOT torque on the street between 3000 and 5000 RPM. But a NA cam package has a great pull and sound to 6800 on stock engine and 7200+ on build engine that adds a whole lot of fun in many many situations. They are different driving experience so if I drinking Starbucks on my M6 and don't want to downshift, the PD is going to give me the torque I need to do things. But if I like the lay slowly on the throttle thru first cause even STOCK the M6 is traction limited, bang into 2nd, lay into the throttle bang into 3rd with a 7200 high compression v8, um no your PD can't deliver that on the stock long block, I will say that the bigger maggi might be able to do it as it holds boost to a much higher RPM. So they are different. I don't have a PD or auto so maybe that is the cat's meow for many or most people. I have a M6 and if given a choice I'd take a cam over boost period. My first blower cam as a Pray designed package with cam, heads, tune, so I never did a Centri on stock long block, nor the new 2650. I'm sure any FI on the stock long block is great but at least for the 2300 mentioned nor the LT4 offer the take notice idle and the thrill of 7000+ shifts. They are different driving experience period.

Once again as I've been saying for a while now the Centri offers to my mind a better thru the gear experience, I base it on a M6, the new 2650 probably offers the same experience but that is 3 years after the Centri's offer. I don't hang out on the ZL1 forum but I'm sure there are few PD 1.7 to 2650 upgrades that are very happy with the new found top-end torque and power on a near stock longblock / exhaust etc. So if it were me, I'd probably not recommend a 2300 or 1.7 unless it was REALLY cheap and /or you just like to drink coffee on a M6. The initial 2650 dynos are that impressive, it is holding boost longer even on stock size cams. I would predict there will be many more 1.7 and 2300 second hand as people experience what the D1x Centri is already providing, boost at the top end where it is actually used 5000 to 7000+. Same area where the cam and heads guys were too.



This is the number one reason for me, after all that is said and done to go with a supercharger. You can have all the power that you want and literally have a stock exhaust. It is very hard for me to describe how LOUD a large cam, LT, no-cat car is even with the stock muffler and STUPID loud with many of these aftermarket 3" systems. STUPID loud.

I did not try large cam, stock headers, CA deletes, Bolra 60608 dual resonator in the center, I'm sure it is down 30 to 40 HP over the LT NA, but it might be usable as a DD.




This is untrue. Here I have direct experience, from FBO to FBO + built engine. The car sounds bad action at idle, but in gear, it sounds and drives and responds like stock. This is a large high compression V8, it responds well to cam, heads, headers... it just does. I had a LS1 and this is a completely different engine. Stage 1 cams BTW it is hard to tell at idle. So drives like stock, but stock does not pull to 7200 RPM.



From your lips to god's ear. I too lived over the LS1 valvetrain failure. I said that to Pray on this board 3 years ago. You would think I would learn




For the most part, 11.5 CR will carry most cams we are talking about, car drives fine NA, more than fine, spanking fun. Others here too have 11.5 with some pretty big cams. Stage 2+ and bigger I agree with you and 12.2 and / or a stroker would help out. So from my experience, this engine can take a stage II and perform well.


True dat



I believe Pray went 10.1 with his ported factory heads, IM, TB.


true dat




I can install a cam into my car AFM with a spec single spring in one day and cost about $550 all in. Say the small compcam above. The only issue is what beehive to run and an BTR LS6 spring 100lbs at 1.8 and 285 lbs at 1.240 or .560 lift ($70) may work That is what the hobby is all about. Now you are talking trading in the car.

I agree with keeping an SS 1le NA but most of what you noted as special about the zl1 on top of the engine/OD, OPs car has; ediff, dampers, forged wheels, and same tires.. but the zl1s dampers were obviously tuned for the extra weight and the diff extra power/torque I assume.

Also I don't think gm put less gear in the zl1... ss 2.77 vs zl1 2.85, and 3.73s on both m6s.