[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Fair enough if you want to get into the private run workhole wasnt the 5th gen ZL1 capable of 11s, and also as you love to say fully loaded compared to the Z/28 that had optional air conditioning



I gave you a list of people, some said they would others said they would understand if someone chose one over the other. You are choosing to ignore that.

I did say I would have to drive both, but would probably lean GT500 bc I have been more of a straightline guy. I am not sure I would appreciate the light weight handling of the 350.



No I don't. Such a limited number of cars I do not think they said hey look Joe Schmo Ford got 5K over what we said this car should sell for lets raise the price!

Do you believe GM when they said they are losing money on every C8 sold that isn't over 80K? They said the C8 is a loss leader. They already said the MSRP for the C8 will go up for the 21 MY. Don't you think it's possible it was a similar route for Ford?



You want to know what you are getting, you are getting a manual transmission and the biggest FPC engine in a production car and on the R carbon fiber wheels and the only NA car in that price range that makes over 500HP. Despite what you feel about it, despite there are some better performing cars out there is nothing else that offers that on the market right now. There is nothing else like it available for it's price. Camaro guys used to love to say they loved that the camaro didn't sell as much because it made their car seem unique. Some people just like being unique.

Subjective feelings is just that subjective. Some guys like blondes, some like brunettes. Some like the thrill of a manual high revving V8 others like the pull of a supercharged V-8 connected to an auto.

I agree with most of what you said but I doubt Ford was ever losing money on GT350s. Yes the engine is expensive and took a lot of R&D, but besides that it's a modified s550 with essentially the v6 camaros tremec transmission. No a total redesign. Doubt they were losing. While people are willing to pay adm's, Ford should do their best to curb that for their diehard fans sake.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

LOL, did you get tired of talking about him on M6G, figured you would man up and do it over here at least?

I would be embarrassed bro, especially after your nonsense claim that M6G doesnt Mag Race. The 500 isnt hardly out yet, and all you guys have been doing is comparing time to ZL1 mag times.

WTH do you call that if not mag racing?

This, they don't magazine race unless it's convenient. Fast list type times are only good when the magazine times aren't good, but only for the mustang lol.

Most hardcore car people pull for their "team".... to be expected... especially with mustang people lol.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I agree with most of what you said but I doubt Ford was ever losing money on GT350s. Yes the engine is expensive and took a lot of R&D, but besides that it's a modified s550 with essentially the v6 camaros tremec transmission. No a total redesign. Doubt they were losing. While people are willing to pay adm's, Ford should do their best to curb that for their diehard fans sake.

Damn shame what the scumbag Ford dealers are doing with the adms. Wish the car manufacturers would just sell direct and create a nationwide network of service departments.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Because that is not what I asked. I asked who personally would pick the R over the 500 at the same price. Not one person here said they would. Even the diehard Mustang guys wouldn't.


Do you think the performance of the R justifies the price as compared to the price and performance of the 500?

So I will give you that. Yes it is a hard sell for the GT350R. I thought about it some more this morning on my slow commute in to the office. Only thing else I will say about that is that it will still find homes for the reasons myself and others listed. You don't like it, you don't see why other people would do it but it's not your money so let people buy what they want to buy and be happy for them. And you should be happy for ford too that they are still selling high performance models. With how bad the segment is doing, the fact that some of these high dollar models are still selling is a good thing.

Do I think the R's price justifies it's performance...that is a dicey question.(in short not anymore) I look at the whole package. When the car was released the only thing that was close in performance costed more and didn't offer any creature comforts and in head to head testing got outperformed for less money. That was 4 years ago, and I have said I thought it should have been put out pasture a model year or two ago so in the present day yes its performance does leave a bit to be desired, but then I look at the total package and see that there is still nothing like it on the market.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It wasn't a "Joe Schmo" dealership tho. They were almost every Ford dealership in the country. And they were charging ADMs up to $25,000 in some cases.

The C8 isn't going to increase by $5K tho. Do I think GM is losing money? No. Of course not. Do I think it is the same route for Ford? Absolutely not. The R price increased after the 500 was released. Timing will tell you everything. The only reason the R price increased is because the buyers have no other choice. Supply and demand right? If there were plenty of choices available then there would be no demand.

Come on Blaq you are better than that.

So did you forget about all those corvette price bumps? I forget what year it was in the C6 but the MSRP went up like 1500 mid model year.

C7 also had it's share of increases

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2015...rice-increase/

Second model year for the C7 went up from MSRP of 51,995 to 55,995. That was in one model year. What massive updates to the C7 called for a 4K price increase from 2014 to 2015?

"The 2014 Corvette Stingray was initially priced at an MSRP of $51,995 for the non-Z51 Coupe when the car was introduced in January 2013"

"The new MSRP for the 2015 Corvette Stingray Coupe will start at $55,995 for the non-Z51 version "

The Z06 has gone up from a starting price of 78K to 82K. Must be from all the ADM Chevy was getting on the C7....oh wait that's right the last few years they have been discounting them to move them but GM still rose the price on them? It's almost like updates cost money and they have to pass it on to the consumer imagine that!

When the 350R came out it was 63 or 64K with 0 options and if you optioned back the tech stuff went to 68 or 69K. Now that stuff is standard, and it's received updates and trickle down from the 500 and the price is 74K. So it's gone up 5K from 2016 to 2020 But that's because Ford saw all the ADM dealers were charging and not from any updates they did. So GM bumps prices on their halo car its from updates and Ford bumps prices on their halo car and its bc of ADM got it.

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

C&D Results
GT500: 11.4@132
ZL1: 11.4@125

Disappointing results for sure. I thought they would get slightly better. Was thinking 11.2ish

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Damn....I gotta throw a flag on the play here, BW. You clearly don't like the GT500 or the GT350R. And you don't like Ford's approach to how they roll out their performance vehicles. We get it. But calling either of those cars a failure is sorta way out there, bro. YOU don't like, don't want, and don't think they're worth the $$. Cool. Got it. But "failure"? Not many failures can do 0-60-0 in 10 seconds. Or trip the 1/4 mile light at 130+. GT350 / GT500 / ZL1/ ZLE / C8....all great cars. We're lucky to be in a time where we have to choose between them. The ZL1 is still great without having to denigrate the GT500. Just sayin'....


And seriously, the personal attacks man? Calling out GSJ's family? (BTW - I have it on good authority that she is a helluva racer). Be better than that.

Good points Martin, competition makes everyone better.

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

This exactly.



Also this.

The GT500 is doing exactly what I predicted. Slotting in between GM and Dodge in the 1/4 mile, while road course remains to be seen. I also predicted 11s unprepped, and mid-high 10's on prepped surfaces...looks like that is turning out to be very accurate.

Price will always be subjective...it the premium for a GT500 worth it over it's counterparts? Who can say except those willing to pay for them...I justify big expenses on certain cars I own, doesn't mean they are worth it

You called it. I didn't expect the mags to hit 10s but I did think C&D would be able to get better than the 11.4 they got. MPH shows the power is there for sure

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

OuGood post. Full of bravado as usual. I won't resort to name calling today. And I'm not getting into if I can afford. To lease a ZL1 or not. But most adults with a decent job can. You did. Now to my point. I've never seen anyone so happy. About a run on concrete before? I guess magazine racers only understand magazine times. I'm going to just throw this out there. When you ran your 11.9 in your auto ZL1. It was on a prepped track. Correct? The 10.9 ZL1 hero run on your fast list. Prepped track? The 9 second run. I made in my broke down 15 gt. Was on a prepped track! I think most are getting the point I'm making. Now without insulting anyones intelligence. You see a 125 trap speed. Then you see a 132 trap speed. Which car will be faster under normal racing conditions? This question is for the rest of the room. I know blaq doesn't understand this stuff.

The gt500 is obviously the faster car on a prepped surface and the trap speed shows it's pulling harder for sure, so it'll obviously win a roll on the street even though it doesn't win 0-60, a 1/4 run, or stop light race on the street. As it should be with the extra power... but let's not forget the 11.5s and mid 11s it also ran on a prepped surface if we're bringing up BW's shitty 11.9 on a prepped surface lol.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not surprised at that. I think MT is gearing up to offer the whole potato on one of their for-fee channels, so this is just a teaser. Sorta like the SS vs PP1 "cowboy racing" H2H that was on their for-fee channel for about a month before being released to the masses. I'm already subscribed to their for-fee channels so I'll be looking for it.

This

They also had a C8 at VIR in an article that came up a few days earlier with no lap times either... must be a big head to head coming

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

So I will give you that. Yes it is a hard sell for the GT350R. I thought about it some more this morning on my slow commute in to the office. Only thing else I will say about that is that it will still find homes for the reasons myself and others listed. You don't like it, you don't see why other people would do it but it's not your money so let people buy what they want to buy and be happy for them. And you should be happy for ford too that they are still selling high performance models. With how bad the segment is doing, the fact that some of these high dollar models are still selling is a good thing.

Do I think the R's price justifies it's performance...that is a dicey question.(in short not anymore) I look at the whole package. When the car was released the only thing that was close in performance costed more and didn't offer any creature comforts and in head to head testing got outperformed for less money. That was 4 years ago, and I have said I thought it should have been put out pasture a model year or two ago so in the present day yes its performance does leave a bit to be desired, but then I look at the total package and see that there is still nothing like it on the market.



Come on Blaq you are better than that.

So did you forget about all those corvette price bumps? I forget what year it was in the C6 but the MSRP went up like 1500 mid model year.

C7 also had it's share of increases

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2015...rice-increase/

Second model year for the C7 went up from MSRP of 51,995 to 55,995. That was in one model year. What massive updates to the C7 called for a 4K price increase from 2014 to 2015?

"The 2014 Corvette Stingray was initially priced at an MSRP of $51,995 for the non-Z51 Coupe when the car was introduced in January 2013"

"The new MSRP for the 2015 Corvette Stingray Coupe will start at $55,995 for the non-Z51 version "

The Z06 has gone up from a starting price of 78K to 82K. Must be from all the ADM Chevy was getting on the C7....oh wait that's right the last few years they have been discounting them to move them but GM still rose the price on them? It's almost like updates cost money and they have to pass it on to the consumer imagine that!

When the 350R came out it was 63 or 64K with 0 options and if you optioned back the tech stuff went to 68 or 69K. Now that stuff is standard, and it's received updates and trickle down from the 500 and the price is 74K. So it's gone up 5K from 2016 to 2020 But that's because Ford saw all the ADM dealers were charging and not from any updates they did. So GM bumps prices on their halo car its from updates and Ford bumps prices on their halo car and its bc of ADM got it.



Disappointing results for sure. I thought they would get slightly better. Was thinking 11.2ish



Good points Martin, competition makes everyone better.



You called it. I didn't expect the mags to hit 10s but I did think C&D would be able to get better than the 11.4 they got. MPH shows the power is there for sure

2014 to 2015 c7 did get the updated a8 over the a6. Still this is irrelevant becaise it wouldn't have affected the base m7 price, just saying what update it did get lol. I have no dog in that fight, an increase of 1500 or 2k to the msrp to any of these cars is somewhat irrelevant imo, especially if you buy at the right time.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

2014 to 2015 c7 did get the updated a8 over the a6. Still this is irrelevant becaise it wouldn't have affected the base m7 price, just saying what update it did get lol. I have no dog in that fight, an increase of 1500 or 2k to the msrp to any of these cars is somewhat irrelevant imo, especially if you buy at the right time.

My point is basically blaq wants to say the only reason the 350 price has gone up is because of the ADMs and not the updates they have done to it in it's 5 (4* if you want to call it that way) model years of existence.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Oh cool. You're here to back up the 180mph road course claim? Tell me where and when it happened? Ive never got up to more than 130. But Ive only driven at Jersey Motorsport park.

Dude, it is too early to be drinking. Put down the sauce, you're making no sense.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

My point is basically blaq wants to say the only reason the 350 price has gone up is because of the ADMs and not the updates they have done to it in it's 5 (4* if you want to call it that way) model years of existence.

Not sure about the R, but comparing the 2017 GT350 I drove at GM Proving Grounds to the 2019 GT350 I drove on Detroit's stellar pavement made it pretty clear to me that Ford did a lot more than a tire swap. The 2019 got some GT500 suspension goodies and they had a noticeable effect. Did R get some of these upgrades? Not sure. Could be that R already had them. I do know that the 2019 GT350 was one of the tightest handling cars I've ever driven and was a significant upgrade (to me at least) from the 2017. Granted I only drove one for a couple hours and the other for a couple days, more than two years apart and under different conditions. Clearly not same day / same track / same driver.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not sure about the R, but comparing the 2017 GT350 I drove at GM Proving Grounds to the 2019 GT350 I drove on Detroit's stellar pavement made it pretty clear to me that Ford did a lot more than a tire swap. The 2019 got some GT500 suspension goodies and they had a noticeable effect. Did R get some of these upgrades? Not sure. Could be that R already had them. I do know that the 2019 GT350 was one of the tightest handling cars I've ever driven and was a significant upgrade (to me at least) from the 2017. Granted I only drove one for a couple hours and the other for a couple days, more than two years apart and under different conditions. Clearly not same day / same track / same driver.

The R got revised brakes, wider cup 2s, and the revised steering setup from the GT500 from a few articles I read

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The R got revised brakes, wider cup 2s, and the revised steering setup from the GT500 from a few articles I read

UGH....I wish GM would make updates like Ford does. I know the Mustang is Ford's Halo car, and the Camaro is not GM's, so I understand why I just hate it LOL.

[rocket403]

I would like to see some proof that Blaq did 180 at a road track

add to that the personal attacks are uncalled for.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

The gt500 is obviously the faster car on a prepped surface and the trap speed shows it's pulling harder for sure, so it'll obviously win a roll on the street even though it doesn't win 0-60, a 1/4 run, or stop light race on the street. As it should be with the extra power... but let's not forget the 11.5s and mid 11s it also ran on a prepped surface if we're bringing up BW's shitty 11.9 on a prepped surface lol.

I don't disagree with you. I don't know what you drive? But It's very possible for me. To lose a stop light, to stop light race. To a kid in a slightly modded STI. Even though I'm sitting on 750whp. Lucky for me. I don't race on public streets. I think we can agree. Racing should be kept where it belongs. On a road course or drag strip. I think we can also agree. There will be some 10.4s-5s run out of the GT500. At places like Atco & Cecil. In negative 1500 DA. Would you say that's a fair assumption? It's to simple of a car to drive. Not to. Hasn't been done yet. But the first owner. A teenager with no racing background. Has already went 10.6. In less favorable DA. Than I mentioned above. Of course youll be able to throw the keys. To some ding dong internet racer. That will take a GT500. And run a 12 with it. I don't know about you. But Im not taking a chance. On wrecking a 60-90 thousand dollar Mustang or Camaro. Racing on dirty concrete. So just from looking at the numbers. Common sense should tell us. All you need to know. The ZL1 needs a power bump. To play the straight line game. With cars making 760 to 800hp. I'm not much of a road course guy. So ill have to take the magazines word. For those times.