[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Lower ADM. That's it. The R has a higher MSRP solely because it is the only Shelby reasonably available. Now unless for some reason a person just LOVES the Voodoo and absolutely has to have it for subjective reasons there is no other reason to get it over the 500 except that the 500 has ridiculous ADM.

That is exactly my point. It's just a shame that the Mustang fellas don't get it...or refuse to accept it.

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

I pay for cars that resonate with me. Yes I would have bought it at MSRP. I paid very close to it anyway. It's a ****in R man. Like I said, after I decided to buy one, I searched for a 3 1/2 months. They are still going for AT LEAST MSRP here locally and in many cases have ADM. I did find a 2020 R for $1k over invoice about 60 miles away. I look out for them for friends and members elsewhere.

I traded off a 12 Boss for 14 GT500 thinking I was upgrading all around. Looking back, I made a mistake. That Boss was a fun driver and handled better. The 14 GT500 had amenities and straight-line power that was hard to put down and a huge pucker factor in corners. I won't do that again. I'm keeping the R and if I gotta have a 2020 GT500, I'll get a lightly used one or a deal somewhere. Not in a hurry. My R will paid off late spring I estimate.

As another poster already said, N/A engine that revs to the moon and is the best sound I've ever heard. The exhaust literally needs nothing. Precise smooth as butter manual trans. Power with balance. World class handling. Rarity, ~4k R's produced over 6 years. I'm set. I thoroughly enjoy it. Has it depreciated? Certainly. Everything in my price range does. I didn't buy it to store and look at it.

Would you have picked it over the 500 if both were available on the same lot and both were at the same price?

Originally Posted by shaffe

There were plenty of people that walked past the more powerful, loaded, more comfortable ZL1 and chose the more expensive Z/28 despite it being slower in the 1/4 mile but better on a road course. There are people that have chosen optioned up Grand Sport Corvettes over Z06s that cost the same or less. You seem unable to look past any from of subjective reasoning some people may have for what they purchase. Which is fine, I totally see where you are coming from. Hell I even questioned a while ago why sell both at the same time, but apparently the 350 is still selling well enough to warrant being around - we will see once the 500 is in full swing though.

Actually, the 5th Gen Z28 was tied with the 5th Gen ZL1 in the quarter mile. Both ran 12.2 when tested.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yes not many people straight up said they would take the R myself included, but from what I gather from these posts
















They all make a case as to why someone would. All out performance sometimes is not the only factor. You want the all out performance , totally understandable but some people would rather row their own gears and have a screaming NA engine than a supercharged automatic. It kind of goes to why some people still choose a manual vs the auto. The auto is faster and now with how good they are even faster on a road course. But people feel the connection to the car with the manual.

I'm not asking who prefers what car shaffe. I'm asking who would buy the R instead of a 500 if both are on the same lot and priced at MSRP.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I still strongly disagree that ford saw markups, and that is why the GT350 is priced the way it is. i think the price has gone up because they have had to go back and fix stuff(no coolers, updating packages, more standard content, warranty claims)

You guys keep saying the market decides the price tho. And that people are willing to pay more for the GT350. Yet you think that all the media attention the markups got went unnoticed by Ford? You think they didn't decide that, yes, the car is indeed worth more than what we charged for it originally so let's raise it a bit? LOL!!

Originally Posted by shaffe

I get it, you can't see any subjective reason why someone would prefer something over something else. You want to see a measurable as to why, you want the bragging rights. There is nothing wrong with that. What I think is wrong is it seems you are trying to fault someone for making a subjective decision.

I don't want to see it. I'm asking what am I getting for the R if I choose it over the 500? A faster car? Better/different tech? Luxury components? Comfort? You can't admit that there is nothing on paper that I am getting for the R. Every trim for the Camaro, as it goes up the price goes up and therefore the performance. Same with the Challengers. The Mustang is the only one that doesn't. With the Camaros I can show you what I got for my money. Same with the Challengers. With the Mustang all I can say I got out of the higher price is a feeling of "cosmic" awesomeness or something.

Subjective feelings is just a polite term for being taken advantage of.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

This is me, that's why I chose the GS over a Z06, and the SS 1le over the Zl1. I also don't give a shit about a10 cars and their 2 tenths advantage in 0-60 and 1/4 racing. Also why I think the gt500 is cool, it's fast and powerful, but doesn't do much for me. I'll take a slower Zle if I was after big power or a way slower gt350/350R if I needed said manual v8 sports car to be a Mustang.

If I was willing to spend 100k+ on it, then I'd go c7 Zr1 m7 all day. Now a manual gt500 for 75 to 85k would have my attention for sure.

You make some very good points. But in each case you are also paying less for those cars. The GS is less than the Z06 option for option. The SLE is less than the ZL1. Would you have still bought the SLE if it costed more than the ZL1? Would you have bought the GS if it costed more than a similarly equipped Z06?

Again I am not talking preference. I am talking about if the car you preferred costed more than a better performing higher trim of the same make/model, would you have picked it.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Actually, the 5th Gen Z28 was tied with the 5th Gen ZL1 in the quarter mile. Both ran 12.2 when tested.

Fair enough if you want to get into the private run workhole wasnt the 5th gen ZL1 capable of 11s, and also as you love to say fully loaded compared to the Z/28 that had optional air conditioning

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm not asking who prefers what car shaffe. I'm asking who would buy the R instead of a 500 if both are on the same lot and priced at MSRP.

I gave you a list of people, some said they would others said they would understand if someone chose one over the other. You are choosing to ignore that.

I did say I would have to drive both, but would probably lean GT500 bc I have been more of a straightline guy. I am not sure I would appreciate the light weight handling of the 350.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You guys keep saying the market decides the price tho. And that people are willing to pay more for the GT350. Yet you think that all the media attention the markups got went unnoticed by Ford? You think they didn't decide that, yes, the car is indeed worth more than what we charged for it originally so let's raise it a bit? LOL!!

No I don't. Such a limited number of cars I do not think they said hey look Joe Schmo Ford got 5K over what we said this car should sell for lets raise the price!

Do you believe GM when they said they are losing money on every C8 sold that isn't over 80K? They said the C8 is a loss leader. They already said the MSRP for the C8 will go up for the 21 MY. Don't you think it's possible it was a similar route for Ford?

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I don't want to see it. I'm asking what am I getting for the R if I choose it over the 500? A faster car? Better/different tech? Luxury components? Comfort? You can't admit that there is nothing on paper that I am getting for the R. Every trim for the Camaro, as it goes up the price goes up and therefore the performance. Same with the Challengers. The Mustang is the only one that doesn't. With the Camaros I can show you what I got for my money. Same with the Challengers. With the Mustang all I can say I got out of the higher price is a feeling of "cosmic" awesomeness or something.

Subjective feelings is just a polite term for being taken advantage of.

You want to know what you are getting, you are getting a manual transmission and the biggest FPC engine in a production car and on the R carbon fiber wheels and the only NA car in that price range that makes over 500HP. Despite what you feel about it, despite there are some better performing cars out there is nothing else that offers that on the market right now. There is nothing else like it available for it's price. Camaro guys used to love to say they loved that the camaro didn't sell as much because it made their car seem unique. Some people just like being unique.

Subjective feelings is just that subjective. Some guys like blondes, some like brunettes. Some like the thrill of a manual high revving V8 others like the pull of a supercharged V-8 connected to an auto.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I don't want to see it. I'm asking what am I getting for the R if I choose it over the 500? A faster car? Better/different tech? Luxury components? Comfort? You can't admit that there is nothing on paper that I am getting for the R. Every trim for the Camaro, as it goes up the price goes up and therefore the performance. Same with the Challengers. The Mustang is the only one that doesn't. With the Camaros I can show you what I got for my money. Same with the Challengers. With the Mustang all I can say I got out of the higher price is a feeling of "cosmic" awesomeness or something.

Subjective feelings is just a polite term for being taken advantage of.

The only thing I can think of is Carbon Fiber Wheels. Yes, you get a manual, but that should not be a tick in the plus column as a DCT is superior in performance(not that I care).

Personally I still think the R should have gone away, and maybe 2020 is the last model year.

They gave the non-R SC2's and some other R stuff like suspension tuning I think maybe. Retire the R, keep is as 'limited and special' as possible, I know current R owners would be very happy with that decision too.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Fair enough if you want to get into the private run workhole wasnt the 5th gen ZL1 capable of 11s, and also as you love to say fully loaded compared to the Z/28 that had optional air conditioning

The Z28 matched the ZL1 in a straight line while outperforming it around a track. And it was priced higher. It did not have the creature comforts. But still it offered better performance. This is not the same as the R and the 500. The R costs more and loses at everything.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I gave you a list of people, some said they would others said they would understand if someone chose one over the other. You are choosing to ignore that.

Because that is not what I asked. I asked who personally would pick the R over the 500 at the same price. Not one person here said they would. Even the diehard Mustang guys wouldn't.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I did say I would have to drive both, but would probably lean GT500 bc I have been more of a straightline guy. I am not sure I would appreciate the light weight handling of the 350.

Do you think the performance of the R justifies the price as compared to the price and performance of the 500?

Originally Posted by shaffe

No I don't. Such a limited number of cars I do not think they said hey look Joe Schmo Ford got 5K over what we said this car should sell for lets raise the price!

Do you believe GM when they said they are losing money on every C8 sold that isn't over 80K? They said the C8 is a loss leader. They already said the MSRP for the C8 will go up for the 21 MY. Don't you think it's possible it was a similar route for Ford?

It wasn't a "Joe Schmo" dealership tho. They were almost every Ford dealership in the country. And they were charging ADMs up to $25,000 in some cases.

The C8 isn't going to increase by $5K tho. Do I think GM is losing money? No. Of course not. Do I think it is the same route for Ford? Absolutely not. The R price increased after the 500 was released. Timing will tell you everything. The only reason the R price increased is because the buyers have no other choice. Supply and demand right? If there were plenty of choices available then there would be no demand.

Originally Posted by shaffe

You want to know what you are getting, you are getting a manual transmission and the biggest FPC engine in a production car and on the R carbon fiber wheels and the only NA car in that price range that makes over 500HP. Despite what you feel about it, despite there are some better performing cars out there is nothing else that offers that on the market right now. There is nothing else like it available for it's price. Camaro guys used to love to say they loved that the camaro didn't sell as much because it made their car seem unique. Some people just like being unique.

Yet you and everyone else that I asked would choose the 500 over the R at the same price. LOL!!

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The Z28 matched the ZL1 in a straight line while outperforming it around a track. And it was priced higher. It did not have the creature comforts. But still it offered better performance. This is not the same as the R and the 500. The R costs more and loses at everything.




Because that is not what I asked. I asked who personally would pick the R over the 500 at the same price. Not one person here said they would. Even the diehard Mustang guys wouldn't.


Do you think the performance of the R justifies the price as compared to the price and performance of the 500?



It wasn't a "Joe Schmo" dealership tho. They were almost every Ford dealership in the country. And they were charging ADMs up to $25,000 in some cases.

The C8 isn't going to increase by $5K tho. Do I think GM is losing money? No. Of course not. Do I think it is the same route for Ford? Absolutely not. The R price increased after the 500 was released. Timing will tell you everything. The only reason the R price increased is because the buyers have no other choice. Supply and demand right? If there were plenty of choices available then there would be no demand.



Yet you and everyone else that I asked would choose the 500 over the R at the same price. LOL!!

Why does it bother you so much that folks choose to purchase a GT350? You are ultra focused on it. Are you losing sleep or something? They purchased the car because it is what they wanted. If they now decide they want a GT500, HC, C8, ZL1 it's their decision not yours. And my guess is they really could care less what you think.

[ChefBorOzzy]

C&D Results
GT500: 11.4@132
ZL1: 11.4@125

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

C&D Results
GT500: 11.4@132
ZL1: 11.4@125

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ation-testing/

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by Car&Driver

That's not quite as quick to 60 mph as the Chevy Camaro ZL1, but its massive power is evident at higher speeds....

If you're wondering why a GT500 isn't as quick as the new Corvette despite nearly 300 more horsepower, that's precisely one of the reasons Chevy switched to a mid-engine configuration.....

Newmoon with blah, blah, blah about Evans' hero run in 3... 2...



In all seriousness, this is EXACTLY what we have been saying here for weeks....

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ation-testing/

[BlaqWhole]

Can someone please post this over on M6G so I can see them all have a nuclear meltdown??!!

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Can someone please post this over on M6G so I can see them all have a nuclear meltdown??!!

Should ask Newmoon if the GT500 is "hurting feelings" yet.

[Rodan]

Looks like MT did a track test at VIR... https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...ck-test-review

But.... no lap times??!!

I'd think if the GT500 was crushing it, they'd have posted some times?

They did mention 170mph on the straight, which is flying. No question, the power is there...

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by Rodan

Looks like MT did a track test at VIR... https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...ck-test-review

But.... no lap times??!!

I'd think if the GT500 was crushing it, they'd have posted some times?

They did mention 170mph on the straight, which is flying. No question, the power is there...

Here's a thread on it (interesting comments):
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=566371