[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

And most drivers in a Mustang GT who pull up next to a Camaro SS at a stop light are not. And now I have confidence that my lower hp heavier convertible can take a higher hp coupe Bullitt. Maybe you can try figuring that out.

We know why, Ford decided to limit the manual mustangs through programming, same way Chevy did the manual ZL1 right, but you knew that already. Mistake by Ford yes, same for the ZL1.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by LS6-M22

Makes me wonder if you can just order the LT1 with the A10 and summer tires then. Lighter car with the same tires as the SS. I dont know about the suspension settings but if its not as stiff as the SS maybe it can transfer the weight a little better for a quicker launch.....

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I don't know what the LT1 will have as a available options but wheels and tires are the first thing I would upgrade. I would just buy different wheels and DRs.

The best part of the LT1 is it is cheaper and doesn't come with things you dont need. I'm sure someone like Fraxum will take one and make a monster out of it.

This is my curiosity with the LT1 Camaro...again, but it on the same tires as whatever you are comparing it to, and I'm certain the lighter Camaro has an advantage...see what the owners do with them.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Yeah, but since the GT PP1 A10 is faster then ALL GTs are faster. Didn’t you get the memo? Just like since a Challenger Hellcat can roast an SS, so can an R/T. I mean they both have Hemis, right? At least that’s how every other Challenger R/T driver behaves in the Detroit area.

So....the GT PP1 A10 is faster than an SS. And an M6 pick-a-trim-level GT is the slowest pony car. So which one is the “REAL” GT? Yes, people, trim levels matter. That’s why Ford has so many of them. Choose wisely.

Logic won't work...the mute button does

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

We know why, Ford decided to limit the manual mustangs through programming, same way Chevy did the manual ZL1 right, but you knew that already. Mistake by Ford yes, same for the ZL1.

So you're saying that Ford had to restrict a 460 HP car the same way that GM had to restrict a 650 HP car? Because if so then that says a lot about how poor the Mustang owner's driving skills are. Or that the Mustang just has such a shitty suspension and tires. Either way is just sad.

Looking over the past few years it is clear that the Mustang is just a joke.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So you're saying that Ford had to restrict a 460 HP car the same way that GM had to restrict a 650 HP car? Because if so then that says a lot about how poor the Mustang owner's driving skills are. Or that the Mustang just has such a shitty suspension and tires. Either way is just sad.

Looking over the past few years it is clear that the Mustang is just a joke.

Yes all your above statements are spot on. Its ridiculous for either car, you paid the price for the advertised performance, and they chose to limit it. Didn't the ZL1 buyer also pay for 650/650 yet aren't getting it. If the mustang is a joke the much more expensive M6 ZL1 is an even bigger joke.

[rocket403]

None of these cars is a joke they are all very close to each other in their abilities, and all of the 3 have programming built-in to the platforms to limit damage for one reason or another.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Yup. Only 6 of them would be faster than "the slowest pony car".

And those 6 better hope that their car goes the .1 faster it's supposed to go according to a couple of reviews in the real world, or that they are not starting from a roll.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

And those 6 better hope that their car goes the .1 faster it's supposed to go according to a couple of reviews in the real world, or that they are not starting from a roll.

and factual shots fired!

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

We know why, Ford decided to limit the manual mustangs through programming, same way Chevy did the manual ZL1 right, but you knew that already. Mistake by Ford yes, same for the ZL1.

Did they also program the shift forks to shatter?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

And those 6 better hope that their car goes the .1 faster it's supposed to go according to a couple of reviews in the real world, or that they are not starting from a roll.

Actually I would think the Mustang would be better from a roll since it would be up in the revs. The torque difference at launch is more to the Camaro's advantage.

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

and factual shots fired!

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Did they also program the shift forks to shatter?

And another battalion fires from the flank....

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Actually I would think the Mustang would be better from a roll since it would be up in the revs. The torque difference at launch is more to the Camaro's advantage.





And another battalion fires from the flank....

At high speed rolls you're right, 120-130mph+ the mustang has the advantage, at least in the m6's (revs, and super tall gearing 5th and 6th on m6 camaros). At lower Speed rolls the Camaro gets the jump.

And I was more referring to the coveted magazine times, their "more real world" rolling 5-60. 4.2 vs 4.6.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes all your above statements are spot on. Its ridiculous for either car, you paid the price for the advertised performance, and they chose to limit it. Didn't the ZL1 buyer also pay for 650/650 yet aren't getting it. If the mustang is a joke the much more expensive M6 ZL1 is an even bigger joke.

The m6 zl1's protections, while totally lame and not to be defended, keep it from breaking itself. For whatever reason the m6 GT was protected at a much lower power level, but it still breaks regardless. I'm sure the broken shift fork joke isn't that funny to the guys who have to deal with it.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Maybe on the street, but on a prepped track - might sway to the lighter car.

Put the LT1 on a similar tire to the 1320 (I don't get those who argue against testing cars on identical compounds...) and I still think the 1320 with is trans stuff will win, but it will be closer than a base 1SS. GT* might even have a problem (again would require testing on the same tire...and please spare the stock or showroom stock comments, I am no more impressed if a Camaro beats a Mustang or Challenger due to having a better tire than the other way around. Equal tire, let the cars compete as apples to apples).

LT1 appears to be 66lbs lighter (not as much as I thought it would be):

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/09/...s-most-torque/

That would be interesting to see. From my own personal experience, if a street tire isn't that good on the street a prepped surface won't make much difference. I remember racing at Cordova Dragway one time. I entered a 13.60 index class, in my Mustang on street tires. I made three passes all weekend and blew the tires off everytime. And the track prep was decent because they also had 9 and 8 second classes running that weekend.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The thing is, GM walked on stage with the SS in 2016. It changed everything. They spiked the ball and walked off the field. They returned with the SLE and the ZL1 while everyone was still recovering from the ass whooping the SS laid on them. Then a year later they dropped the ZLE...followed up by the ZR1...and then the C8. In between all that was the Z06 and GS destroying everything in sight.

No denying that, that hit a grand slam performance wise with the 6th gen.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What happened in the Ford camp? Oh. The GT in 2015 gained weight, handled poorly, and got slower despite having more HP while on a new chassis. The GT350 showed up swinging at an out going 5th Gen Z28 that GM clearly walked away from. Why Ford thought they needed to focus on battling the Z28 in it's final year without realizing that something monstrous was right around the corner was just stupid. So the GT350R showed up which was impressively slower than everything in it's price range even while having no options. Oh and a Ford GT showed up costing half a million dollars. The GT350R gets it's ass kicked. The GT350 gets it's ass kicked by the SLE. The SHelbys start overheating and catching on fire...some dude almost burns to a crisp, they all get recalled, Ford has to re-do the entire Mustang GT (2018), then it has to be redone again (PP2), they overheat...SMH. Then the GT500 is supposed to come out in 2018...uh no, 2019...oh wait, 2020. 180 MPH limiter...4200 pounds...$94K...then there was the Bullitt...

Yes Ford was short sighted to target the Z/28. as we have discussed many times, it was a total d*** measuring contest type move. The only thing in the 350R price range is the ZL1 and yes the Z is faster. The 350/R is also faster than many cars that are more expensive than it, just as the ZL1 is.

yeah Ford has definitely fumbled the ball quite a few times with the S550 in attempts to catch up

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Meanwhile over in Dodge...advertise advertise advertise. Advertise the hell out of the Hellcat/Redeye/Demon...but sell the RTs with the 5.7L and 385 HP which would have been popular and impressive back in 1998. Hellcat Hellcat Hellcat commercials...let's take a Hellcat, remove the options, and stick the SRT8 engine in it and call it a "1320"...let's take a Hellcat and throw a bigger blower on it and call it a "Redeye"...Redeye costs $90K when options are added to it...let's take the Hellcat hood and throw it on every trim...even the V6s? Yes. Even the V6s. Throw Hellcat hoods on everything including the V6s. Oh what if we add flares to it and call it a "Widebody"?? Hmm...what else can we do with the Hellcat...??

LOL got to love the Dodge strategy... hellcat everything! They are so in the now, it scares me to think of their long term future. They are doing whatever they can to sell stuff now, and it's working but long term not a good strategy. From a business perspective, the strategy is working. Halo models bringing people in and leaving with something. It's very short sighted strategy and good for now, but long term it's almost like they aren't worried about it.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Then GM unleashes the C8 under $60K Base and under $65K Z51 that goes 0-60 in less than 3 seconds with both cars doing a low 11 sec quarter and both cars being faster top speed than a 760 HP supercharged Mustang and the game is soo lopsided that it isn't even fair to the competition any more.

The C8 is something special. It's gonna be awesome to see the high po variants.

I still don't get infatuation with top speed. Supposedly even if the GT500 wasn't limited to 180 it would top out around 190ish. Some of the guys on the other forum figured with the gearing in the DCT and the 3.73 rear end it would top at like 191 I think. I wonder if they limited it to 180 because of how long it would take to get to that theoretical top speed?

Originally Posted by newmoon

We know why, Ford decided to limit the manual mustangs through programming, same way Chevy did the manual ZL1 right, but you knew that already. Mistake by Ford yes, same for the ZL1.

That would be the first I have heard of Ford programming limiting the manual cars.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Did they also program the shift forks to shatter?

boom headshot

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That would be interesting to see. From my own personal experience, if a street tire isn't that good on the street a prepped surface won't make much difference. I remember racing at Cordova Dragway one time. I entered a 13.60 index class, in my Mustang on street tires. I made three passes all weekend and blew the tires off everytime. And the track prep was decent because they also had 9 and 8 second classes running that weekend.

Track prep will always help with traction, even on street tires. The key is to keep them from spinning through air pressure adjustments, and not to overheat/underheat with the burnout.

I too have had street tires that seemed to hook better on the street, than the track, but I was over-pressured and too cold during my track passes...lesson learned.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That would be interesting to see. From my own personal experience, if a street tire isn't that good on the street a prepped surface won't make much difference. I remember racing at Cordova Dragway one time. I entered a 13.60 index class, in my Mustang on street tires. I made three passes all weekend and blew the tires off everytime. And the track prep was decent because they also had 9 and 8 second classes running that weekend.



No denying that, that hit a grand slam performance wise with the 6th gen.



Yes Ford was short sighted to target the Z/28. as we have discussed many times, it was a total d*** measuring contest type move. The only thing in the 350R price range is the ZL1 and yes the Z is faster. The 350/R is also faster than many cars that are more expensive than it, just as the ZL1 is.

yeah Ford has definitely fumbled the ball quite a few times with the S550 in attempts to catch up





LOL got to love the Dodge strategy... hellcat everything! They are so in the now, it scares me to think of their long term future. They are doing whatever they can to sell stuff now, and it's working but long term not a good strategy. From a business perspective, the strategy is working. Halo models bringing people in and leaving with something. It's very short sighted strategy and good for now, but long term it's almost like they aren't worried about it.



The C8 is something special. It's gonna be awesome to see the high po variants.

I still don't get infatuation with top speed. Supposedly even if the GT500 wasn't limited to 180 it would top out around 190ish. Some of the guys on the other forum figured with the gearing in the DCT and the 3.73 rear end it would top at like 191 I think. I wonder if they limited it to 180 because of how long it would take to get to that theoretical top speed?



That would be the first I have heard of Ford programming limiting the manual cars.



boom headshot

Agreed on the gt350r anf zl1, we can sit here and go back and forth splitting hairs and measuring you know whats, but regardless these are some badass American cars that take it to the Europeans for a lot less money. Add the 1le and pp2 to that also