[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I assume Ford is making the Hellcat/Redeye the main competitor to the 500. They likely wont be aiming at the track performance of the ZL1 never mind the ZLE. The 500 really has to be faster than the Redeye to be considered a success in my mind. And I expect the pricing to start around 80k.

However I have kinda lost interest. C8 looks outstanding thus far and I'm more interested in that then a 80k Mustang.

This is a problem Ford will now face by waiting so dang long to release the GT500. It's just so late to the party, there are better things from the competition just around the corner(at least they appear to be better right now).

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I don't compete in any competitions where I would win money. So I would rather continue to improve my driving skills, than have electronics do it for me. I know I'm old school and the minority, and I'm fine with that. To be completely honest, the manual versions of the highest performing Camaros and Corvettes are still within tenths of a second on road courses in the hands of skilled drivers...so the real advantage of auto and DCT is to those less skilled - where the auto allows them to be faster than they would be in a manual.

I agree with you mostly. My SS is a manual after all. But you and I seem to be in the minority of car buyers these days.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

This is a problem Ford will now face by waiting so dang long to release the GT500. It's just so late to the party, there are better things from the competition just around the corner(at least they appear to be better right now).

Agreed. 2 years ago would have been the perfect time to release it. For whatever reason it wasn't ready. Now if by some chance the MSRP is lower than we expect that may change my mind. But right now I'm still skeptical of its performance compared to the competition

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I agree with you mostly. My SS is a manual after all. But you and I seem to be in the minority of car buyers these days.

Unfortunately true.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Agreed. 2 years ago would have been the perfect time to release it. For whatever reason it wasn't ready. Now if by some chance the MSRP is lower than we expect that may change my mind. But right now I'm still skeptical of its performance compared to the competition

This, the GT500 should have been available as a 2018 right after the ZL1, no different than the Trinity hammer released by Ford in 2013 right after the 2012 ZL1 debuted. It's losing relevance every month as the C8 draws near, and a Supercharged GT500 becomes same-old, same-old.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Which still proves my point that it's not a 90K car lol.

Absolutely not a $90k car. Its a $80k car. If Ford can match the Redeye widebody's et, respectable track performance and a sub $80k msrp, they have a winner.

As others have said, Ford waited too long and the C8, Redeye and ZL1 will get a strong look from anyone spending that much money

C8 supercar performance - the hot new thing
Redeye muscle car
ZL1 triple threat with an attractive msrp.

Where does the GT500 fit and how attractive is it at $80k? ...$90k ...+$90k?

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Absolutely not a $90k car. Its a $80k car. If Ford can match the Redeye widebody's et, respectable track performance and a sub $80k msrp, they have a winner.

As others have said, Ford waited too long and the C8, Redeye and ZL1 will get a strong look from anyone spending that much money

C8 supercar performance - the hot new thing
Redeye muscle car
ZL1 triple threat with an attractive msrp.

Where does the GT500 fit and how attractive is it at $80k? ...$90k ...+$90k?

You bring up a good point. How attractive will the GT500 be to non Mustang fanatics. We know those with the means will buy one but the rest of us? I have already said I think it will be 80k+ which if it is I'm not even considering it. I honestly don't know if I would consider it at 70k. The C8 is awfully attractive and may (probably).come in below that for the base or maybe even Z51 package.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I agree with you mostly. My SS is a manual after all. But you and I seem to be in the minority of car buyers these days.

I am a M6 traitor for the first time in many years. The ZL1 A10 is really good and interesting to drive. The Camaro V8 builtin M6 SS/ZL1 bog turned me off when choosing the ZL1. I have seen a couple of M6 ZL1s struggle to get into the 11s. And I will say a complete performance car like the current SS and ZL1 are more enjoyable to drive than older versions with the auto. There are times when you want to do some relaxing sporty driving while enjoying the scenery and chatting with your passenger. Is it that I just got old? LOL

All that being said would prefer a PDK over both of the above. It is such a great compromise. That WILL be the thing that kills the Manual. Bet on it.

I car love my Camaro, but hats off to Ford making a move forward for the modern muscle car with the PDK. They broke the ice. And hats off to Ford for not crippling their manuals.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Which still proves my point that it's not a 90K car lol.

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Still almost 20k more expensive than a ZL1 however..

The problem with all these cars, with exception to the ZL1, is that you will have a difficult time finding any of them at MSRP for some odd reason. Plenty of us have been able to go to a dealership and buy a ZL1 at MSRP. Mine was slightly over because of add-ons but certainly not damn near $20K extra. So what is being added to the RE that they are $90K and higher fully loaded? Is it just that stripped down from the factory? Same with the Shelbys. This is why I think the ZL1 is the best car for the value. Because you can actually get one at value.

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Well since we are on the topic of Corvettes...

I have high expectation for the C8 - some of which are already getting let down. I don't like the steering wheel 2 spoke design, reminds me of the wheel in my 4th gen which isn't "pretty" by any standard. Also, no manual rumor, much like the GT500 means I won't own one. I know the GT500 Ford Boss says they might consider it, I haven't heard anything positive from either C8 or GT500 camp for a manual offering. Other than that, the latest renderings are pretty good, and I think from a performance standpoint it will be highly capable. I still might end up looking for a used C7 ZR1 as I think they will hold value extremely well being the last big HP V8 with a manual from GM in the traditional Corvette layout.

I am excited to see Zora's dream finally be realized, only with he was around to experience it.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I love my manual but the fact is the autos are simply better for performance. Just the way it is. I'm not disappointed in having a DCT in the 500 and the C8.

The C8 should be awesome. I hope I'm not over-hyping it.

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I don't compete in any competitions where I would win money. So I would rather continue to improve my driving skills, than have electronics do it for me. I know I'm old school and the minority, and I'm fine with that. To be completely honest, the manual versions of the highest performing Camaros and Corvettes are still within tenths of a second on road courses in the hands of skilled drivers...so the real advantage of auto and DCT is to those less skilled - where the auto allows them to be faster than they would be in a manual.

I'm starting to wonder if the reason why these higher HP cars are not being offered with a manual trans is really because they can't add in proper control over a certain HP. Or if perhaps the manuals cannot safely handle too much more than around 700ish HP without failing or becoming too expensive to build. Or maybe if the cost of building these vehicles is such that they cannot offer both trans styles in them and simply chose the automatic to attract more buyers.

Whatever the case the focus is on winning. And winning requires an auto trans. Manual equipped cars simply cannot keep up. It sucks but that is just how it is.

[BlaqWhole]

Awesome ad from the Bowtie boys on the 55th anniversary of the Stang!!

[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm starting to wonder if the reason why these higher HP cars are not being offered with a manual trans is really because they can't add in proper control over a certain HP. Or if perhaps the manuals cannot safely handle too much more than around 700ish HP without failing or becoming too expensive to build. Or maybe if the cost of building these vehicles is such that they cannot offer both trans styles in them and simply chose the automatic to attract more buyers.

It's all of this and 1 more reason: without all the pricy and heavy upgrades, they need torque management systems to protect the car from the driver...

[BlaqWhole]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...the-silverado/

So GM strapped the LT4 blower to the 5.3 in the Silverado but never went thru with producing this thing. In a way this is cool because I do want a Silverado in the future and at least I know a used ZL1 blower can be fitted to it. But I wonder why GM doesn't just go ahead and throw the complete LT4 engine with blower into a SUV to go up against the Trackhawk or a Truck to go up against the Raptor. They could build it for the street, throw AWD in it, maybe tune it specifically for a larger body, throw a top speed limiter on it (like 130 MPH), and price it around $60K-$70K. I think a lot of us would go for it over a pricier luxury-wannabe Trackhawk, Raptor, or the X5M/X6M. Even if it was de-tuned to 575-625 HP I think it would be a nice alternative.

With the Predator possibly going in the Raptor and the Hellcat engine possibly going into the Durango I think GM needs to acknowledge that there is a market for hi-po trucks and SUVs. And no, a 305 HP Blazer, no matter how cool it looks, is not going to cut it. These powerful engines are nice to have. But it would be nicer if they could be had in more practical applications. GM is the only one right now that doesn't cater to this market.

Originally Posted by Gunkk

It's all of this and 1 more reason: without all the pricy and heavy upgrades, they need torque management systems to protect the car from the driver...

Yup. It is a necessary evil unfortunately.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The problem with all these cars, with exception to the ZL1, is that you will have a difficult time finding any of them at MSRP for some odd reason. Plenty of us have been able to go to a dealership and buy a ZL1 at MSRP. Mine was slightly over because of add-ons but certainly not damn near $20K extra. So what is being added to the RE that they are $90K and higher fully loaded? Is it just that stripped down from the factory? Same with the Shelbys. This is why I think the ZL1 is the best car for the value. Because you can actually get one at value.




I'm starting to wonder if the reason why these higher HP cars are not being offered with a manual trans is really because they can't add in proper control over a certain HP. Or if perhaps the manuals cannot safely handle too much more than around 700ish HP without failing or becoming too expensive to build. Or maybe if the cost of building these vehicles is such that they cannot offer both trans styles in them and simply chose the automatic to attract more buyers.

Whatever the case the focus is on winning. And winning requires an auto trans. Manual equipped cars simply cannot keep up. It sucks but that is just how it is.

Three reasons, mostly dealing with transmission electronics controls:

1. Transmission controls technology has progressed to the point where it is probably impossible for a human to shift faster and make better gear selections than a properly controlled automatic. The same holds true for DCTs. Similar levels of controller logic.
2. Transmission controls have progressed to the point where fuel economy can be optimized for whatever driving mode is selected. This is a HUGE deal for companies needing to meet ever stricter CAFE requirements.
3. Shift dynamics and transmission controls have combined to all but eliminate the friction and pumping loss disadvantages that older automatics have had compared to the more modern automatics.

[Ethanolic]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Three reasons, mostly dealing with transmission electronics controls:

1. Transmission controls technology has progressed to the point where it is probably impossible for a human to shift faster and make better gear selections than a properly controlled automatic. The same holds true for DCTs. Similar levels of controller logic.
2. Transmission controls have progressed to the point where fuel economy can be optimized for whatever driving mode is selected. This is a HUGE deal for companies needing to meet ever stricter CAFE requirements.
3. Shift dynamics and transmission controls have combined to all but eliminate the friction and pumping loss disadvantages that older automatics have had compared to the more modern automatics.

^this

The Auto/DCT transmissions ability to use vehicle sensors to predict shift needs will render the manual obsolete in terms of performance metrics on track, in fuel economy and durability.

Offering a manual for the sole reason of pleasing a decreasing number of purists makes poor financial sense.

[rocket403]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The problem with all these cars, with exception to the ZL1, is that you will have a difficult time finding any of them at MSRP for some odd reason. Plenty of us have been able to go to a dealership and buy a ZL1 at MSRP. Mine was slightly over because of add-ons but certainly not damn near $20K extra. So what is being added to the RE that they are $90K and higher fully loaded? Is it just that stripped down from the factory? Same with the Shelbys. This is why I think the ZL1 is the best car for the value. Because you can actually get one at value.

Redeyes are selling for MSRP in my area, there may be some dealers that are putting ADM's on their cars but if you shop around you will be rewarded. I'll take the RE for the best value.