[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Gravity eh?

Let's talk inertia. How many times per minute does a piston stop during it's cycle at 500 RPM? How about 6000 RPM? Doesn't matter for this topic. Does any of that impact Knock or LSPI? Of course. Are both of those dynamically adaptive? Yes. Therefore, irrelevant for this conversation.

You're still asserting some magical engine load greater than WOT. Let's say my foot is to the floor. What gear gives the most load? All of them. All of them also give different vehicle acceleration rates, which is an irrelevant metric in this conversation.

You haven't answered my question. Have you ever lugged an engine?

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

You haven't answered my question. Have you ever lugged an engine?

Does that change the physics of the topic? No, it does not. Your question is irrelevant.

If you want to amuse yourself, watch my PDR videos.


You haven't provided an adequate definition of "lugging" for me to accurately answer it. Have I damaged or destroyed an engine from WOT at "too-low" an RPM? No. Have I tried? Absolutely. WOT at idle is a legitimate tuning parameter. The OEM calibration is absolutely tuned for such a circumstance. To assert otherwise is to be ignorant of the ECU strategy.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

The engine will lug in 6th at a higher speed than first so yes it will lug a lot longer and easier which is laboring the engine unnecessarily.

To address your statement in bold. Can you start from a dead stop in 6th? And if not, why?

You're asserting vehicle speed is a key component of "lugging". That is false. "Lugging" is a function of engine RPM and load, a critical distinction. Also, what makes you think the engine isn't designed to "Labor". By definition the engine performs work, which is synonymous with labor. Again you're using vague terms [from the owners manual] that have no concrete definition.

To answer your question; absolutely. The clutch will need to slip a lot to match ground speed to engine speed, but it's absolutely possible. That anecdote is totally irrelevant to the topic however.

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

You're asserting vehicle speed is a key component of "lugging". That is false. "Lugging" is a function of engine RPM and load, a critical distinction. Also, what makes you think the engine isn't designed to "Labor". By definition the engine performs work, which is synonymous with labor. Again you're using vague terms [from the owners manual] that have no concrete definition.

To answer your question; absolutely. The clutch will need to slip a lot to match ground speed to engine speed, but it's absolutely possible. That anecdote is totally irrelevant to the topic however.

This is getting so amusing, but I'll bite. Why does the clutch need to slip a lot in one gear and not the other?

[Ryephile]

The key is that none of that has anything to do with engine load, but thanks for trying so hard to stay off topic.

You're trying to say something, but you're only demonstrating your fundamental misunderstanding of the topic.


I dare you to go out and drive your car with an HPTuners MPVI, data-record "load" and "driver torque request", and do your proposed experiment. Gather some data, understand how the ECU works, then come back.

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

The key is that none of that has anything to do with engine load, but thanks for trying so hard to stay off topic.

You're trying to say something, but you're only demonstrating your fundamental misunderstanding of the topic.


I dare you to go out and drive your car with an HPTuners MPVI, data-record "load" and "driver torque request", and do your proposed experiment. Gather some data, understand how the ECU works, then come back.

Actually, it has everything to do with what this topic is about. That is, selecting too high a gear for the given speed, and / or trying to accelerate at in a high gear at too low a speed. The fact is, the engine has to work harder to achieve same amount of work in these situations. That is a provable fact.

What's debatable, is if any engine damage or long term issues can occur as a result.

And with that I will bow out of this little back and forth. You can have the last word.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

Actually, it has everything to do with what this topic is about. That is, selecting too high a gear for the given speed, and / or trying to accelerate at in a high gear at too low a speed. The fact is, the engine has to work harder to achieve same amount of work in these situations. That is a provable fact.

What's debatable, is if any engine damage or long term issues can occur as a result.

And with that I will bow out of this little back and forth. You can have the last word.

You are correct, asking for the same acceleration in a different gear changes the load of the engine. This is the point; the driver is changing the operating parameters of the engine, not the gear ratio. The driver can just as well request the same torque in different gears to achieve the same engine load. Of course that will result in different vehicle acceleration, because you've change the transmission torque multiplication.

I've already shown the SAE certification, and that proves that 1,000 RPM and over have a guaranteed output, which means it's outside the damage envelope...ignoring that the ECU controls LPSI and knock regardless of RPM. This isn't the 1980's anymore where the ECU is basic and open loop. In ECU terms, it's not even the early 2000's anymore. Strategies and controls change quickly and broadly with each generation. If there's one takeaway here, it's that current ECU's have made the topic of "lugging" irrelevant to the driver. The driver simply doesn't have the authority to make the ECU damage the engine.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

You are correct, asking for the same acceleration in a different gear changes the load of the engine. This is the point; the driver is changing the operating parameters of the engine, not the gear ratio. The driver can just as well request the same torque in different gears to achieve the same engine load. Of course that will result in different vehicle acceleration, because you've change the transmission torque multiplication.

I've already shown the SAE certification, and that proves that 1,000 RPM and over have a guaranteed output, which means it's outside the damage envelope...ignoring that the ECU controls LPSI and knock regardless of RPM. This isn't the 1980's anymore where the ECU is basic and open loop. In ECU terms, it's not even the early 2000's anymore. Strategies and controls change quickly and broadly with each generation. If there's one takeaway here, it's that current ECU's have made the topic of "lugging" irrelevant to the driver. The driver simply doesn't have the authority to make the ECU damage the engine.

You are completely missing an important factor, which is will the explosions in the combustion chamber accelerate the motion of the piston. With higher gears it will not sufficiently and hence lugging.

But I guess you know more than the engineers at GM that made sure this got into the owner's manual. Who to believe, some dude on the internet who clearly thinks he knows it all when he's actually missing the whole picture, or the engineers at GM who designed and built the f'in motor? Hmm? Let me think on this for a while.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

...the explosions in the combustion chamber accelerate the motion of the piston. With higher gears it will not sufficiently and hence lugging...

At what RPM are you asserting the occurrence of this "behavior"?

The irony of your rant against me isn't lost. I'm asserting the GM calibrators did an excellent job controlling LSPI with the E92's strategy. At no point am I claiming knowledge beyond their calibration.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

At what RPM are you asserting the occurrence of this "behavior"?

The irony of your rant against me isn't lost. I'm asserting the GM calibrators did an excellent job controlling LSPI with the E92's strategy. At no point am I claiming knowledge beyond their calibration.

The real irony is you asking that question. It shows you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm done here.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

Actually, it has everything to do with what this topic is about. That is, selecting too high a gear for the given speed, and / or trying to accelerate at in a high gear at too low a speed. The fact is, the engine has to work harder to achieve same amount of work in these situations. That is a provable fact.

What's debatable, is if any engine damage or long term issues can occur as a result.

And with that I will bow out of this little back and forth. You can have the last word.

Work at a high load for longer. But not a higher load. And to your 6th gear start from a dead stop, the engine won’t work harder. Your clutch will hate you though.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

But I guess you know more than the engineers at GM that made sure this got into the owner's manual. Who to believe, some dude on the internet who clearly thinks he knows it all when he's actually missing the whole picture, or the engineers at GM who designed and built the f'in motor? Hmm? Let me think on this for a while.

The owners manual also says it's not advised to leave the engine running while parked. The car is equipped with a remote engine start... Also says don't go over 80mph till 1500 miles. If you seriously believe some of the things listed in the manual as being law then you are one gullible individual.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

The owners manual also says it's not advised to leave the engine running while parked. The car is equipped with a remote engine start... Also says don't go over 80mph till 1500 miles. If you seriously believe some of the things listed in the manual as being law then you are one gullible individual.

What does your post have to do with lugging? Nothing. Don't post if you have nothing to contribute besides your own BS. All those things are in the manual for a reason. Just because you don't understand why doesn't make them any less true.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

What does your post have to do with lugging? Nothing. Don't post if you have nothing to contribute besides your own BS. All those things are in the manual for a reason. Just because you don't understand why doesn't make them any less true.

I'll decide what I post thank you. I made many posts regarding lugging earlier. If you don't like it, you can simply not reply or jump off a cliff. Either way this post will go on without you and your attitude.