[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by joe944

M3's are very commonly tracked, and nobody is telling them they are stupid and should have bought a GTS.

No, but if BMW offered a cheaper M3 with no coolers and a less aggressive suspension and you purchased that and tried to track it then people would call you an idiot.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

This they are capable track performers but the last true track Camaro was the Z28 a car purposely built to handle the rigors of track duty competition again and again and again, maybe the ZL1-1LE may fall into this as well. Much like the GT350R. Sure the ZL1 and 1LE can lay down significant lap times, can they do it all day, day after day, is the engine and entire drivetrain built to handle this abuse as its main venue. Tests show the 1LE capable of laying a better lap than the 5th Gen Z28, in a prolonged session how long until that Z28 overtakes the 1LE?

Irony

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

The SS and ZL1 are not track cars, but they are trackable.

Originally Posted by Spartan268

So what exactly defines a "track" car?

This is a direct quote from the press release announcing the 6th Gen Camaro...

With improved handling and performance, the Camaro SS delivers better lap times than the fifth-generation’s track-focused Camaro 1LE package.


Then there’s this statement from the announcement of warranty coverage for Camaros extending to track use...

The policy applies to all track-oriented Camaros: the V8 SS in particular, as well as the ZL1, the forthcoming Z/28, and the 1LE and both of its available engines. The last ZL1 and Z/28 were also track-covered, so the fact that this policy is trickling down to other performance trims shows a lot of confidence on the part of GM for its sixth-gen Camaro's ability to handle competition.

So, if the 5th Gen 1LE is a track-focused car, and the 6th Gen SS performs better on the track than the 5th Gen, and GM officially states coverage for SS for on-track usage, what makes the 6th Gen SS NOT a track car? No question that the 6th Gen 1LE is a better track car than an SS. And a ZL1 is a better track car than an SS 1LE and a ZL1 1LE is a better track car than...oh, you get it.

[hotlap]

.

Car and Driver:11 Surprising Facts About the New Camaro

10. The SS model is "track capable"
In anticipation of expected hard driving, the Camaro SS is rated as track capable. That means that it can run for an entire tank of fuel at maximum speed around GM’s Milford Road Course without cooking its engine, transmission, differential, or brakes. That’s why it has so many radiators.

https://www.caranddriver.com/flipboo...-new-camaro#11

Automobile: Track Tested: 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS at Gingerman Raceway

When you add up the cost of the direct-injection V-8, dedicated coolers for the transmission and differential, optional MagnaRide dampers, standard 13.6-inch front, 13.3-inch rear Brembo four-piston brakes, as well as 245/40R-20 front and 275/35R-20 rear Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 run-flat tires, it’s clear that Chevy spent a lot of money on the 2016 Camaro SS.

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/t...erman-raceway/

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This is a direct quote from the press release announcing the 6th Gen Camaro...

With improved handling and performance, the Camaro SS delivers better lap times than the fifth-generation’s track-focused Camaro 1LE package.


Then there’s this statement from the announcement of warranty coverage for Camaros extending to track use...

The policy applies to all track-oriented Camaros: the V8 SS in particular, as well as the ZL1, the forthcoming Z/28, and the 1LE and both of its available engines. The last ZL1 and Z/28 were also track-covered, so the fact that this policy is trickling down to other performance trims shows a lot of confidence on the part of GM for its sixth-gen Camaro's ability to handle competition.

So, if the 5th Gen 1LE is a track-focused car, and the 6th Gen SS performs better on the track than the 5th Gen, and GM officially states coverage for SS for on-track usage, what makes the 6th Gen SS NOT a track car? No question that the 6th Gen 1LE is a better track car than an SS. And a ZL1 is a better track car than an SS 1LE and a ZL1 1LE is a better track car than...oh, you get it.

so because a future generation of a model performs better on track than a more track focused older gen it automatically becomes a track car? Or is it because GM warranties it that it becomes a track car? Ford warranties their cars on track as long as you are not in a competitive event or they can determine misuse.

The GT-R coincidentally is not covered on track at all... so is it not a track car? Pretty sure Porsche's aren't covered on track either.

[J_MaherAMG]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

Aside from the catching fire that's being discussed here, have you seen the 47 page 'blown engine' thread in the M6G GT350 section? There seems to be an uncomfortable amount of engine failures reported. I'm reading 41 according a post by the one of the members. I did not read through the entire thread but there's lots of talk about possible issues with oil pressure.

Being that you seem pretty knowledgeable about the Voodoo, do you have any insight on this?

Yeah I've been a part of the discussion in that thread as well. It would be a lie to tell you that the 41 cases or so are not alarming or do not cause some worry in the back of my mind, after all its human nature to worry about the things we invest ourselves in. Really hard to paint an accurate picture of the overall model though with such a small sample size. And as we know, more often than not, people will speak up to void a complaint or issue they are having as opposed to chiming in or signing up on a forum to say that everything is hunky dory.

Early on a lot of people suspected the OPG to be the culprit, but if there was a issue there we wouldn't see the oil consumption issues that some users are reporting, as a OPG failure would be catastrophic. We'll probably never know if there is an actual design issue or if a specific part is causing the trouble. I imagine that a large part of it can be attributed to the fact that it is a hand built engine (their first at that) as well as a new engine design so therefore new parts, suppliers, manufacturers etc. are being used that were not used. Then when you consider that because of the very high redline and design, tolerances are much tighter than they would be for a CPC engine, and combine that with the fact that people like to loaf around at high rpms with very light load just for the sound, oil consumption is a given. On top of that, we really just don't know how many owners ran their cars hard without checking oil levels regularly which may have caused an issue, or other human errors that may have happened.

Who knows how it will all pan out in the years to come, but based on the couple of guys that are apparently statistical experts, there is no reason to panic and jump ship yet by no means. My engineer brain tells me to follow logic and reason as well and not to panic I have no issues with my R so far or oil usage issues, so as long as it keeps running strong I'll be a happy man.

[zx9rmal]

Originally Posted by J_MaherAMG

I guess it all depends on why you purchase X vehicle over Y and what have you. I could have purchased a base Z06 for less than my R here in Canada, or a mildly optioned one for not much more. For that matter the Viper was also in my price range when shopping. But ultimately after spending time in my father's Vette, I came to appreciate that relative level of power/weight. Very fun on the street, still plenty of quick for what my purposes, and IMO I believe being able to push a slower car a little harder is more enjoyable than driving a much faster car slower due to a higher level of skill required. I just know that if I were to have Z06 power levels under my foot, I would have to be much more cautious of throttle application coming out of corners and even on straight sections really.

Of course both of those cars are significantly faster on track and at the strip than my R is as well, but I purposefully chose the slower car primarily because the engine interested me more. I knew I wanted a high revving engine, and it was something unique and never seen before. End of the day man I feel like we need to come to the realization that at this point in time, technology is advancing faster than we can keep up, or at least faster than my wallet can keep up LOL I would never be able to afford to continually buy the "newest, fastest thing". Hell, in a short time basic electric commuters might be quicker 0-60 than the majority of our V8 sports cars, but it won't bother me one one bit.

The whole coolers fiasco is a mess I agree. But don't forget that the PP2 might be close to the GT350 in performance, when the 350 has Pilot Super Sports. Sport Cup 2's make a pretty big difference in performance, hence the MY19 350 coming with SC2's to retain the several second per lap gap between the Shelby and PP2. When Ford was testing their own Performance vehicles, the R was over 8 seconds a lap faster than the MY18 PP1 GT. Putting sport cup 2's on the PP2 and a little better suspension components won't come near to closing that gap on the R anyways.

The CF wheels are expensive yes, especially when they first came out. But you have to know that Ford doesn't pay what we would pay at the parts counter? The price has come down a lot over the past several years as well, I believe a set can be had for around $10K. Compared to a set of the best forged wheels at ~$6K and it is still expensive, but not completely insane. What most people don't realize is that when they look at the weight of the CF wheels they think "oh sure they're only 18lbs, forged wheels are cheaper and I can get them at 20-21lbs a piece in that size". But what they don't realize is that a lot of the weight of the CF wheel is actually the aluminum backpad at the centre of the wheel. Where it counts, at the outer edge, the wheel is extremely light. It is also more rigid an retains its camber better during high G-loading as well compared to traditional wheels. Ultimately it was absolutely expensive, but it was an investment on their part. You can see they then used CF wheels on the Ford GT, and certainly the GT500 whenever it bothers to show up will have them as an option. You can certainly bet it will continue to be shown on their higher end performance models for the forseeable future, as well as other manufacturers once they decide to invest in the technology. The dividends in regards to performance and driving feel are worth it.

The FPC was also expensive, but it can't really be denied that it is one of the most universally loved engines in the past number of years. Personally I can't recall any other engine getting as much attention or praise since I've been into cars over the last decade or so other than the GT3's. I also like that they did something unique for the 350 nameplate, and decided to go outside the norm. I have wanted a GT3 since I got into cars, and when I saw the GT350 I knew it was as close to that driving experience as I could get for less than half the cost. Some engines are experience oil consumption issues and there have been a number of failures of course, but the situations seem to be pretty varied, pointing to not just one item being the cause of these failures. I imagine since it is a hand built engine and Ford's first of its kind there are some growing pains associated with not only the assembly but also defects from the various manufacturers whom the parts are supplied. My car burns virtually nothing, less than 1/4 of a quart over ~7000miles and many others have the same experience.

TLR - We purchase cars for different reasons, coolers are a must for track cars, CF and FPC's are kewlll, electric cars will soon dominate the 1/4mile scene

How refreshing. A mature response. Thanks.

[J_MaherAMG]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm not sure if you were around back then but the LS1 engine got way more praise and "ooohhhh, aaahhhh" than the Voodoo gets. And that was way before social media made it easier to drool over stuff. These days the Chevy small block, Chrysler Hemi, and even the Ford flat head are still widely respected that they will appear on a best engines of all time list before the Voodoo does and that is if the Voodoo is even on the list at all. Even the Hellcat engine gets more praise and is more well known and respected. Would I agree that it is one of the more popular recent engines? Of course. Would I say that it is the most popular recent engine? Not at all. And for the record, I haven't seen any of this praise over the Voodoo like you're making it out to be. I'm not trying to insult you or the Shelby, but the only people I see giving it all the praise you're talking about are the Mustang crowd a magazine article from over a year ago. The fact that there are more people who have traded in GT350s for ZL1s and Z06s than the other way around tells me that those engines are not as special as people think they are. We have had several people come over here after trading in for the ZL1. The only times I've seen a Chevy getting traded in for a Shelby is when it's a SS Camaro or a Stingray vette.

I do think it was a drastic issue considering that someone could have been killed. All cars have issues that require a recall at some point. But it seems that Ford recalls tend to involve fire hazards. I remember years ago a Mark VIII I had got recalled for something to do with the cruise control that could spontaneously cause a fire even if the engine was off and the car was sitting undisturbed. And they told people that until the recall was done on their car to not park it in a garage or near their house or trees or anything that could cause an intense fire. Any time something happens on the level of fires, loss of life, or extensive loss of property, I consider that to be drastic. And again, I'm not knocking them, I'm just stating what has happened in the past and how I view it.

For the record, that guy's car burst into flames at 120 MPH. He is lucky to be alive. If that isn't drastic then I don't know what is.

I would love my car for being one of the greatest performance cars of it's time in it's price range if not THE greatest. Considering that no car in the same price range can match the ZL1's performance in any category stock for stock and it is cheaper than it's competitors I would have to say that it IS the greatest right now. But I could be biased, lol.

But I digress. I would enjoy it for what it is. Just like I would enjoy an 87 IROC, a 95 Z28, an 02 Trans Am, a 97 Mark VIII, a 93 Cobra, a 96 Cobra, an 04 Termi, a 5th Gen SS, an 86 Vette, and so on. But from a performance perspective, now that I am used to the performance that these cars offer, I would not feel as thrilled as I would in a newer one if it offered more performance. My 2010 2SS/RS was an absolute thrill the first time I drove it and I still remember thinking that bone stock that car would be all I ever needed. I was wrong. When I got it to FBO I still enjoyed it even tho I got used to it. But knowing there were more powerful cars out there made me desire to have that thrill like I did the first time in the SS. And the first drive in my ZL1 gave me that. And then the first drive in a Hellcat did it again. Eventually I'll need something more. And I buy these cars for the performance mainly. So if I could not afford a new ZL1 or got stuck with mine then I would have to start modding it to keep it exciting. I would love it just the same. But I would want more performance and I would want the newer toy out there.

Fair enough, and good points. Of other engines in particular I do know that people have been especially fawning over the Hellcat engines. Those things are incredible, just a couple of easy to do mods and you're looking at 1000hp, which is just insane. In regards to people dumping cars and moving to other brands, I honestly think it can be separated by the demographics who bought the cars in the first place. I think a certain portion of GT350 buyers are the typical American sports car consumer, who wanted or had to have the newest "Shelby". I think a portion of that demographic may have been disappointed or underwhelmed by the car based on the fact that it is a lot less powerful than past GT500's, and doesn't have anywhere close to the same torque down low as those cars or the offerings from GM/Dodge. Then you have the guys who wanted the GT350 not because its a Shelby, but for the right reasons, and after owning the car for a while, maybe depending on their location/use for the car they couldn't justify its purpose. Hell, imagine if you are DD your sports car and spend a lot of your commuting on the highway or in slow moving traffic. I know I wouldn't see any benefit of having a high revving top end car then either. So I think in some ways, the 350 may have alienated a part of the typical Shelby consumer base, which is evident by their choices like you said to get into Vette's, ZL1's, etc. that offer the type of power delivery they are accustomed to. At the same time, a lot of 350 owner's are Porsche/BMW owners who are fans of the high revving nature of the engine. I myself am a HUGE Porsche fan, but there is no Porsche dealership in my province. I saw the 350/R when it came out and I said hell, this is as close to a GT3 as I'm going to get that I can get serviced locally, won't be a fortune in basic maintenance, and is nearly half the price of the Porsche. Would still love to have that GT3 someday though

I think the oil cooler line could have been a lot worse for sure. Maybe it was just luck that there weren't many incidents. Like I mentioned, when I checked mine, the line was perfectly fine, crimped correctly. So I honestly do believe that there was probably only a small portion of the 8000 or so units recalled that actually had a defective crimp.

But just for the record, Joe's car burst into flames on track due to a snap ring failure. It had absolutely nothing to do with the recall. When the snap ring came loose, oil sprayed onto the headers which of course then caught fire, the fire then melted the oil cooler lines which then sprayed more oil and fueled the fire further of course. He actually completely lost his brakes as well as the lines were also toasted, luckily he was able to dump the car into 1st gear and had enough runout room to come to a stop without crashing. Very, very lucky to be alive no doubt.

I think we're all biased a little when it comes to these cars. We all choose our cars based on our own preferences and needs, and honestly I can see where it went for you. I would still make the same choice to get my R over a Z06 or Viper if I were to do it again, but I'm extra glad I didn't because some of the same thoughts ran through my head that you've already gone through. For my health and safety sake, I can't afford to get used to having 650hp at my age

I know that one day I'd love to have something that is borderline frightening to drive just for the thrill of it, and I'd love to have something AWD that can blast to 60 in under 3 seconds just for the giddy feeling of it. But at this point I'm enjoying being able to use at least the majority of the power I have available and keeping it between the ditches.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

so because a future generation of a model performs better on track than a more track focused older gen it automatically becomes a track car? Or is it because GM warranties it that it becomes a track car? Ford warranties their cars on track as long as you are not in a competitive event or they can determine misuse.

Yes, especially if the “previous generation” is the model year before and still available for sale new. There were (2) 2015 SS 1LE cars on the showroom floor when I first saw the 2016 SS at my dealer. Would it make sense to say they were track cars but the 2016 SS wasn’t even though taking them and the 2016 2SS to the same track, same day, same driver if you want, would have produced very predictable results?

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

The GT-R coincidentally is not covered on track at all... so is it not a track car? Pretty sure Porsche's aren't covered on track either.

Why different manufacturers do not warranty cars that ARE track capable does not redefine the track capable cars that any other particular manufacturer chooses to warranty. It is not a two-option scenario. It is very possible for track capable cars to not carry track warranty. It is lunacy for a manufacturer to track warranty a car that is not capable. Following that logic, the Gen 6 Camaro SS is a track car. That and the fact that the people responsible for developing the car and the President of the company both say it is. But then, they’re not on the internet much, so maybe they don’t really know.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Why different manufacturers do not warranty cars that ARE track capable does not redefine the track capable cars that any other particular manufacturer chooses to warranty. It is not a two-option scenario. It is very possible for track capable cars to not carry track warranty. It is lunacy for a manufacturer to track warranty a car that is not capable. Following that logic, the Gen 6 Camaro SS is a track car. That and the fact that the people responsible for developing the car and the President of the company both say it is. But then, they’re not on the internet much, so maybe they don’t really know.

track capable. you said it three times in the quoted paragraph and that is what the SS is. Unless your belief is that a GT-R is merely track capable while an SS is a track car because a corporate suit deems it so. Is every track capable car a track car?

there are a hell of alot of S550 GT's running around on road courses with no issues despite Ford being adamant they are not track cars (while warranting them on track) Because they are track capable...hell they are even more capable than last gens track oriented Boss 302. That must certify them as track cars.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

track capable. you said it three times in the quoted paragraph and that is what the SS is. Unless your belief is that a GT-R is merely track capable while an SS is a track car because a corporate suit deems it so. Is every track capable car a track car?

there are a hell of alot of S550 GT's running around on road courses with no issues despite Ford being adamant they are not track cars (while warranting them on track) Because they are track capable...hell they are even more capable than last gens track oriented Boss 302. That must certify them as track cars.

We’re debating squares and rectangles here. Every track car is track capable like every square is a rectangle, but every track capable car is not a track car like every rectangle is not a square. I consider any car that I or any other driver of decent skill level can take on a road course and drive at 80 - 100% for an extended amount of time to be a track car. I’ve driven the GT-R at GM Milford Proving Grounds. It’s a track car. I’ve driven the Porsche Cayman S at Milford. It’s a track car. If the GTPP2 can put up good numbers for a lap or two then has to cool off, it’s track capable but not a track car. It is a rectangle, but not a square.

The corporate suits that said the 6th Gen Camaro SS is a track car are much more accomplished track drivers than I will ever be, so if they say it’s a track car, it’s a track car.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

track capable. you said it three times in the quoted paragraph and that is what the SS is. Unless your belief is that a GT-R is merely track capable while an SS is a track car because a corporate suit deems it so. Is every track capable car a track car?

there are a hell of alot of S550 GT's running around on road courses with no issues despite Ford being adamant they are not track cars (while warranting them on track) Because they are track capable...hell they are even more capable than last gens track oriented Boss 302. That must certify them as track cars.

One more thought on this. My frustration with this whole topic is the only reason we are even having this discussion. My frustration is that Ford was right there at the door of making the PP2 not only a track car, but possibly a track STAR. And they punked out. They decided track capable was good enough.

[FastCarFanBoy]

ok so now we have the definition of a track car. Any car that can be driven above 80% for an extended period of time. Shall we define "extended"? Say 30min?

question. By your definition was Ford lying when they said any GT350 was "Track capable"?

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by J_MaherAMG

Yeah I've been a part of the discussion in that thread as well. It would be a lie to tell you that the 41 cases or so are not alarming or do not cause some worry in the back of my mind, after all its human nature to worry about the things we invest ourselves in. Really hard to paint an accurate picture of the overall model though with such a small sample size. And as we know, more often than not, people will speak up to void a complaint or issue they are having as opposed to chiming in or signing up on a forum to say that everything is hunky dory.

Early on a lot of people suspected the OPG to be the culprit, but if there was a issue there we wouldn't see the oil consumption issues that some users are reporting, as a OPG failure would be catastrophic. We'll probably never know if there is an actual design issue or if a specific part is causing the trouble. I imagine that a large part of it can be attributed to the fact that it is a hand built engine (their first at that) as well as a new engine design so therefore new parts, suppliers, manufacturers etc. are being used that were not used. Then when you consider that because of the very high redline and design, tolerances are much tighter than they would be for a CPC engine, and combine that with the fact that people like to loaf around at high rpms with very light load just for the sound, oil consumption is a given. On top of that, we really just don't know how many owners ran their cars hard without checking oil levels regularly which may have caused an issue, or other human errors that may have happened.

Who knows how it will all pan out in the years to come, but based on the couple of guys that are apparently statistical experts, there is no reason to panic and jump ship yet by no means. My engineer brain tells me to follow logic and reason as well and not to panic I have no issues with my R so far or oil usage issues, so as long as it keeps running strong I'll be a happy man.

Well, I'll admit, these are the kind threads that would worry me had I been a potential buyer. Before I bought the Camaro, among the first things I googled was 'LT1 blown engine'. Then saw the Corvette issues, early LT1 failures and so on. And of course, I combed through the entire problem thread here. In the end, it seemed that Chevy got a handle on it although there's the occasional post about a spun bearing or dropped valve here or there. Still, considering the amount of modders and track rats on the forum, my confidence in its stoutness is still high. And the fact that it's a simpler, tried and true design, helps. Only time will tell. So far, no oil consumption whatsoever and power delivery is as expected.


Thanks for the detailed response. Although I consider the GT350 too expensive for what you get, it's probably one of the only trims I'd encourage someone with the budget to look into at the moment. I think Ford was wise to use the Tremec and feedback has been good in terms of feel. Still, even though the engine failures might be low in the grand scheme of things (hopefully), knowing the root cause would be beneficial to the community in the long run. It's good your engine is healthy and I wish you good luck with your car. I'm sure the enjoyment factor will be worth it in the long run.