[newmoon]

Originally Posted by End User

I highly recommend that you subscribe to Motor Trend OnDemand. It is well worth the $. The SS 1LE vs Mustang GT PP1 video was released three weeks ago.

I'm a longtime reader of Evo (and Performance Car before Evo) so it was nice to see Jethro Bovingdon join Motor Trend. Jethro's drift of a SharkWerks Porsche 997.2 GT3 RS in the canyons was just epic. His Anglesey runs are a treat to watch.

Jethro's comments regarding the 2018 Mustang GT PP1 outlined why it is a such a dog of a car. PP2 may level the playing field but I don't like the looks of the redesign so it was never an option for me.

Truth be told the previous gen Z/28 sold me on the Camaro as a honest to goodness sorted performance car. The current gen SS 1LE is the icing on the cake for me and it is within my budget. I have a 2018 2SS 1LE in production and I can hardly wait for it to arrive.

You might want to take a look at a few of the 2017 1LEs for sale mentioned in the 1LE section, it looks like low to mid 30s could get you into one, saving you a bunch of money.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Jeezus. Just when I thought the Mustang fanboys couldn't get any worse. They posted on my YouTube video that the '18 GT, stock, with a blower at 11 PSI is putting down 840 at the wheels. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and they wonder why we can't even take them seriously anymore. They go unregulated. The Mustang crowd needs government regulations to keep them in check.

You mean this video?

[End User]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You might want to take a look at a few of the 2017 1LEs for sale mentioned in the 1LE section, it looks like low to mid 30s could get you into one, saving you a bunch of money.

Used 1LE's are tempting but I wanted a factory fresh 2SS 1LE.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Crim

You mean this video?

Yea, my stock Zl1. It never fails. I've had to block out at least 30 trolls already. haha. I think I might just let them post public so everyone can see how embarrassing their posts are. I mean, comparing a 11 psi, 840 hp Mustang GT to a stock Zl1. smh. Who does that?

[SpeedIsLife]

840 on a stock motor?...Possible but not with any sort of longevity or even safe.

It seems like 650-700 is where most 5.0's running 8-10ish lbs of boost run on either stock or mostly stock motors (IE replacing the oil pump gears).

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

840 on a stock motor?...Possible but not with any sort of longevity or even safe.

It seems like 650-700 is where most 5.0's running 8-10ish lbs of boost run on either stock or mostly stock motors (IE replacing the oil pump gears).

on a gen1 coyote. 840whp all day on a gen2+. I've ran 680whp for 3yrs on my DD bone stock gen 1 and just tuned for e85 at 740whp still stock. I dont expect it to be reliable but it will only see e85 at the track.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Let me remind you that I'm looking at this comparison with no brand favoritism whatsoever. I happen to own a Mustang, but neither it nor Ford nor the diehard Mustang fan base owns me.

MT could have avoided all mention of mfr or model and disguised/camouflaged the cars to the extent you'd never have been able to guess what they were and my thoughts and posts would not have been any different except to have replaced any incidental mention of either 'Mustang' or 'Camaro' with 'car A' or 'car B'.

Not for nothin and take this however you want...but while I don't think you're a Mustang "fanboy", I do believe that you favor the Mustang. To what extent is unknown but becoming more and more clear. Your arguments are starting to sound more and more like SSFriendly back when he came up with that name so as to sound like he wasn't partial to the Mustang. Yet his colors showed when he spent the majority of his time discrediting the Camaro and defending the Mustang. Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having a favorite. Just don't sit here yanking our chains if that is really the case.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Suppose the 1LE does turn out to top the PP2. Wouldn't you like to know that from actual comparative testing now as opposed to what's still in the hopeful thinking dep't? Even confidence in the outcome doesn't guarantee it will happen the way you'd like it to . . . I'll bet all the Patriots fans were confident last week, too.

I'm not saying not to test the 1LE against the PP2. I'm saying you can't sit here claiming all of a sudden that the PP1 isn't the original competitor to the 1LE just because it lost horribly and Ford needed a new trim. Now if Ford revamped the PP1 to have PP2 stuff and it was still called "PP1" then so be it. But don't sit here making it out to be that the matchup was unfair. It was completely fair. The Mustang just could not compete. And saying otherwise takes away from the Camaro and all GM did to make the 6th Gen Camaro shine like it does. Now if you aren't a Mustang "fanboy", then you would at least give credit where it is due. The PP1 was the upgrade to the GT just like the 1LE was the upgrade to the SS. Ford swung first in 2015 with the S550. GM followed up with the 6th Gen Camaro and decimated the S550 lineup. Now do you suppose that in just 1 year GM designed the 6th Gen to be that much better? Or do you think they had been working on this all along while Ford took a nap and settled for mediocrity? It is clear that Ford settled for making a Mustang that was either on the same level or just slightly better than the outgoing S197 while GM designed the 6th Gen Camaro to be completely and undeniably better than the 5th Gen.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The H2H isn't about drag racing, so a moderate HP upgrade - which was basically only enough for parity with the existing SS - isn't particularly relevant in a road course situation.

Drag racing is the most important aspect of what these cars are. These cars got their start by going fast in a straight line. No matter how you slice it, what these cars do in a straight line will always be what they are mainly judged on.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

What if it doesn't? I'm open to either car winning the rematch so let's wait and see what actually does happen. Understand that any opinions I post will be mine regardless of whether they line up with the opinions of the fanboys - on either side of the street. Like it's always been.

The Camaro will win because even if it loses it will still be a fact that it took Ford a few years, a refreshed Mustang with extra HP, and then on top of that an extra trim level just to beat a Camaro that has been unchanged since 2016. And it would be the first time in the entire S550 lineup that a Mustang has beaten a Camaro even if it is one trim level higher...which it is.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

No, not all of it, and I haven't been trying to say that it was (that's your excuse if you think that's what I've been trying to do).

But it is a significant part (you have to include the wheel widths as well), when very little of the margin came from differences in power, acceleration potential, or aerodynamics.

Where do you suppose most of the difference between 1.12g and 1.00g on the skidpad came from? That's a 12% difference, huge, compared to about a 4% difference in lap times. FWIW, a 12% difference in lateral g's corresponds to about a 6% difference in cornering speed, so maybe the Camaro should have put down closer to a 6% better lap time. What happened that held it down to being only 4% better?


Norm

Then why didn't Ford just slap a tire on the PP1 from the start and call it a day? Why did they need this entire additional package? Why not offer the tire as an upgrade? On the SS you can upgrade the tire to what comes stock on the ZL1. If Ford had done that then they could have tested it with the upgraded tire and we would all know. But as it is we have to wait yet again for another few months for Ford. It wasn't a tire issue. If it was then engineers would not have had to spend countless nights off hours, which I don't believe actually happened anyway, to build this package. They could have just said "Yo, Ford, throw a damn tire on the car" and that would be it.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Norm,

While the road course and canyon carving portion of the H2H was a big win for the Camaro, and "knife to a gun fight" scenario, the rest of the comparison was not. Many folks don't care about turns and are more into 1/4 mile type stuff, and others just want a comfortable GT car.

So, I don't really view this H2H as a "knife to a gunfight" type situation. The Mustang added more HP, a fancy digital gauge cluster, dual injection, Magneride, dual mode exhaust, and many other upgrades that warranted a test against the competition.

Ton's of folks wanted to know how this extra content would compare. Especially the 1/4 mile crowd. An initial hero run gave some Mustang faithful hope that the Mustang would surpass the Camaro when judged on the 1/4 track. As the dust has been settling, it appears that the Mustang improvements brought it to a driver's race rather than a clear lead by any car. Which was to be expected given the HP and weight numbers we saw.

So, this H2H was very valuable as a "same driver same day" comparison in 0-60, 1/4 mile, braking, etc. Many Mustang folks who are into the 1/4 mile won't get the PP2 because it is more for the road course and you can't get the A10 with PP2. So there was great value in this H2H, just not in the road course and/or canyon carving section of the comparison.

But now that the results are out, the Mustang fans don't care because the 1/4 mile crowd got a little ahead of themselves, and so far, all the "same driver same day" comparisons show the Camaro winning, but by a negligible amount. That's not as exciting as a 11 second car they, for a brief time, thought it was.

And on the road course, the Mustang got killed. So, the Mustang crowd isn't excited about that either.

I agree. But I don't think it was a knife to gunfight comparison. I think it was more that Ford brought a butter-knife while GM brought a dagger.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ford swung first in 2015 with the S550. GM followed up with the 6th Gen Camaro and decimated the S550 lineup. Now do you suppose that in just 1 year GM designed the 6th Gen to be that much better? Or do you think they had been working on this all along while Ford took a nap and settled for mediocrity? It is clear that Ford settled for making a Mustang that was either on the same level or just slightly better than the outgoing S197 while GM designed the 6th Gen Camaro to be completely and undeniably better than the 5th Gen.

I think you're overstating the amount of "Camaro designing" GM did for the 6th gen. GM used the chassis "designed" for another upscale brand entirely, borrowed the engine from another upscale model entirely. Ford "designed" S550 for Mustang... its a chassis built for a $25-45k car not a $35-100K luxury platform.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

840 on a stock motor?...Possible but not with any sort of longevity or even safe.

It seems like 650-700 is where most 5.0's running 8-10ish lbs of boost run on either stock or mostly stock motors (IE replacing the oil pump gears).

Tell that to the Mustang forum trolls who constantly troll my videos making those claims. And now they know why everyone looks at Mustang owners the way they do and no way in hell. NO WAY in hell will a stock block pull out 840 hp on 11 psi. NO WAY.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

on a gen1 coyote. 840whp all day on a gen2+. I've ran 680whp for 3yrs on my DD bone stock gen 1 and just tuned for e85 at 740whp still stock. I dont expect it to be reliable but it will only see e85 at the track.

Your boys are claiming the new '18 GT will do 840 at the wheels. Stock on a blower only. ONLY. That's a 400 hp gain from a blower. I'd like to know what kind of blower that is so I can go buy it. Again, here we go with the...........tune/tire/fuel argument all over. This time, they are taking it to level 9 bat shit crazy talk.

You can copy and paste this and put it on the Mustang Forums. I challenge any Mustang forum member who has a '18 GT, with blower to a $10k roll race during Tx2k18. Stock motor. No internals. No other bolt ons. Just a blower. Go find me that guy and we have a race. Shit, I'll even allow GT350's and GT350R's to play. I will bet you another $10k that guy doesn't exist cus there is no 840 RWHP '18 GT right now on blower and stock block. Ya'll fkn ass chodes.

As a matter of fact, my Zl1 is ready for Tx2k. So, any chode with a '18 GT who wants to throw down some $ on a roll race, let's do it. Ooops, doubt any GT owners have $10k to blow. So, there's always that. Yes, I know I'm modded. Everyone knows I'm modded. Don't care. Ya'll keep claiming a '18 GT w/blower is now a 840 hp beast. Well, bring one out to Houston in March. After all, a tire/tune/fuel GT will slay the Zl1, so I figured, hey, I'm game to run a blown GT. So, if a tune/fuel/tire GT will slay my Zl1, then there should be no problem finding a stock block, blown GT to come out to Houston.

And you never know. I could be cammed or Whippled by then. But, that shouldn't matter to the all mighty, holy grail, 2018 GT!!!!!!!!!!

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ford swung first in 2015 with the S550. GM followed up with the 6th Gen Camaro and decimated the S550 lineup. Now do you suppose that in just 1 year GM designed the 6th Gen to be that much better? Or do you think they had been working on this all along while Ford took a nap and settled for mediocrity? It is clear that Ford settled for making a Mustang that was either on the same level or just slightly better than the outgoing S197 while GM designed the 6th Gen Camaro to be completely and undeniably better than the 5th Gen.

I forget exactly where I read it..but the goal of the S550 was to maintain, roughly, the performance of the outgoing S197 while increasing comfort, fit and finish and technology...it might have been in one of the media interviews following the launch of the S550 or in "A Faster Horse".

The goal was to keep the Mustang as inexpensive as possible as it was going to be sold globally where taxes would drive the prices considerably higher than we see here, and they needed volume of sales to pay for certain very expensive localization options (RHD for example).

It's obvious to anyone who is paying attention and is honest that Ford did in fact sacrifice performance for a lower price point and to be more affordable globally and more attractive globally..thus the more Euro styling in the S550.

Chevy went for an evolved 5th Gen style wise while focusing on raw performance at a higher price of entry and not offering things like localization for RHD markets, etc.

Both sides have arguably succeeded in their goals.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

If you are comparing the Camaro to the '18 Mustang, the Mustang has closed the straight line performance gap to pretty even (although initial reports suggest the Camaro is a touch faster if you have to pick one).

If you are comparing performance content, the Mustang added Magneride, Dual Mode Exhaust, chassis bracing, etc., to again even things up a bit.

If you are comparing dynamic handling, the Camaro has a clear advantage. The turn-in is near instantaneous, it has laser sharp precision, and good feedback. The body motions are pretty much non-existent, and with Magnetic Ride Control, it is a very comfortable ride as well.

I was expecting the Mustang to close the gap here as well, because they now have Magneride available, but it seems as though the body motions of the PP1 are way too loose for the track or canyon carving. The rear end flops over so much, you have to make adjustments in the steering (you turn in, wait, then adjust after the rear flops over). I personally feel that this was avoidable.

Some folks have suggested that Ford chose this route intentionally because they wanted a more comfortable ride. But that is no longer true. You don't have to have a harsh suspension to have a great handling car (yes you can make it a bit better by getting harsh, but you don't have to be harsh anymore). And that is without Magneride. WITH Magneride, the Mustang could do a lot better and still be a comfortable ride for road trips.

Very true. The SS with mag ride is still very comfortable in Sport mode. Tour is down right cushy. It’s only when you switch to Track mode that the ride gets harsh.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Drag racing is the most important aspect of what these cars are.

Nope.

The most important aspect of these cars is how they will be as all-around cars, to turn, accelerate, stop, etc.