[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by oldman

The PS4 on the GT PP1 are not all season tires, in fact that can't even be rolled on when cold. The SS, SS 1le and the GT PP1 are summer only tires.

The PS4's are much better than All Seasons for sure, but the PP1 uses smaller sizes than the 1LE (255/275 vs. 275/305).

The PP2 will have Sport Cup 2's that are 305 all the way around. I believe that gives the tire advantage to the PP2 over the 1LE, but I have no experience with either of these tires, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

If you put some race tires on the Mustang, perhaps it would turn a faster lap. But that is just better tires. Does that mean it's a better road course/canyon carving car? Not really. Grip is just part of the equation. Here is an illustration of what I mean:

Compare the Z51 Corvette and the regular SS Camaro (non-1LE). I am sure that the 'vette would turn a better lap time, but most folks who have driven both cars say the Camaro is much more fun to drive due to the driving dynamics near/as/past the limits. The 'vette seems like it is a lot to handle, and you have to fight with it, and it gets sketchy, where the Camaro seems to want to correct itself inspiring confidence.

Road course and canyon carving isn't always about lap times, it's about enjoyment. The Camaro is unbelievably enjoyable, predictable, and fast at the limits. No sketchy about it. It instantly makes you a better driver, and is sooo easy to make go fast. That's fun! I had many instructors at HPDE's tell me they were considering getting a Camaro after riding in mine, including a guy who currently owned a 911. I asked him, "you own a 911, and your thinking of 'upgrading' to a Camaro?", and he said yes! Do you think HPDE instructors would say the same about the Mustang?

Note: the 911 was a non-turbo S model about 8 or so years old. He drove me in his 911 during the instructor group to show me some things we were talking about during my sessions. He had better tires, and the 911 was faster in the turns, but in the front straight he was only getting to about 125 MPH where I as getting close to 145 MPH. And it seemed easier to drive the Camaro fast.

Coming from a supercharged Challenger, no truer words have been said. The Challenger is just too heave to ever enjoy or have "fun" with. Sooner or later you have to stop or turn the beast. The Camaro even bone stock has the correct blend of power, weight and grip.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The PS4's are much better than All Seasons for sure, but the PP1 uses smaller sizes than the 1LE (255/275 vs. 275/305).

The PP2 will have Sport Cup 2's that are 305 all the way around. I believe that gives the tire advantage to the PP2 over the 1LE, but I have no experience with either of these tires, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Once you get to 180 wear tires, I get to the um ain't using them on my DD, so who cares? The F1 R3 are 100 wear The F1 supercar 3 on the 1le has a 220 which I consider the minimum for a DD. Wallet Warriors may have a different opinion. But the thread is clearly stock streetable cars, not near road race rubber thread, which is better than the PS4 or the F1 supercar 3.

Point being the GT PP1 and the SS and the 1lE run on "normal" summer radials.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by oldman

The PS4 on the GT PP1 are not all season tires, in fact that can't even be rolled on when cold. The SS, SS 1le and the GT PP1 are summer only tires.

I know. The test I was referencing was an EcoBoost Mustang with the performance pack( summer tires) and a Camaro 2.0T RS with the All Seasons. Motortrend put the Mustang's summer tires on the Camaro and saw that improvement.

I was mainly commenting to Wyndham's comment about putting the SS 1LE on All seasons( lets say the ones that come with the 2.0T/3.6 RS package), but leave the GT PP1 on the PS4's. I would bet the gap would close considerably.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

only the base models run 18's on the Mustang.

the Performance Pack wheels are all 19's, as were the black wheels that were on that first comparison test.

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

18 are on all. You get 19 when you get PP or black package. Even premium has 18’s.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I meant non-package GT's.

Point is, that 18's and 19's are still much easier to launch, cheaper tires in most respects, and at the end of the day, much easier to find rims for...

In fact, the previous generation Camaro had a hell of a time finding a right off-set for rims smaller than 20's because of the damn Brembo's...

End of the day the Mustang still has an advantage, has had an advantage, and no one bitches about it... *shrug*

[kttxz06]

Jeezus. Just when I thought the Mustang fanboys couldn't get any worse. They posted on my YouTube video that the '18 GT, stock, with a blower at 11 PSI is putting down 840 at the wheels. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and they wonder why we can't even take them seriously anymore. They go unregulated. The Mustang crowd needs government regulations to keep them in check.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Jeezus. Just when I thought the Mustang fanboys couldn't get any worse. They posted on my YouTube video that the '18 GT, stock, with a blower at 11 PSI is putting down 840 at the wheels. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and they wonder why we can't even take them seriously anymore. They go unregulated. The Mustang crowd needs government regulations to keep them in check.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

[Fraxum]

I'm sorry, I cannot follow all of the arguments, can anyone summarize the top 3? Flame me if you must.

I seem to be siding with Norm. He is not a fanboy and neither am I. But I am not saying all the Camaro supporters are fan boys either.

As far as I can tell the Camaro has 2 inherent advantages relative to performance:

1. It weighs a little less (It also seems smaller, and a bit cramped.)
2. It has a more rigid chassis architecture

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

In fact, the previous generation Camaro had a hell of a time finding a right off-set for rims smaller than 20's because of the damn Brembo's...

But were are "now", not 8 years ago. BTW, I put 19s on my 1LE for winter, it was not hard to find them. If you understand offset, it's pretty easy.

I think from the get-go, the Camaro, from both 5 and 6th generations, was designed to take serious rubber, that means wheel-wells and many other factors that are affected (foot-room, seats, axles, engine placement, shocks, etc.). Looking at what the GTs have come with over the same years, they just never struck me as "serious" cars. A serious car should be able to put it's power down and turn, it doesn't need 305s, but it needs tires wide enough to put do these things without causing too much drag and other issues. 235s and 245s? That's ridiculous. And then they have to go to the GT350 to get the serious sized rubber on there, which is very different than the GT, probably because all of those factors and more that I was alluding too, had to be redesigned to take the wider rubber. I'm sure some Mustang owners have figured out how to cram bigger tires in there than stock, usually people do, on any car, but the design specs that they have to go through to ensure no interference and so on are usually more generous and set the limits for the OEM offerings. By limiting the OEM sizes, they had already shot themselves in the foot with these cars.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

I'm sorry, I cannot follow all of the arguments, can anyone summarize the top 3? Flame me if you must.

I seem to be siding with Norm. He is not a fanboy and neither am I. But I am not saying all the Camaro supporters are fan boys either.

As far as I can tell the Camaro has 2 inherent advantages relative to performance:

1. It weighs a little less (It also seems smaller, and a bit cramped.)
2. It has a more rigid chassis architecture

It's not really arguments. Just facts that the Mustang crowd refuse to acknowledge.

SS > GT
Zl1 > GT350
Zl1 1LE > GT350R
Z06 > Upcoming GT500
ZR1 > $400k Ford GT.

How many head to heads and reviews and videos and track times must we post? I think it's just entertainment for the most of us around here honestly because the Mustang crowd have officially hit level 9 bat shit crazyness.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

But were are "now", not 8 years ago. BTW, I put 19s on my 1LE for winter, it was not hard to find them. If you understand offset, it's pretty easy.

You missed the point....and the new car is much easier to do offset with....

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

I'm sorry, I cannot follow all of the arguments, can anyone summarize the top 3? Flame me if you must.

I seem to be siding with Norm. He is not a fanboy and neither am I. But I am not saying all the Camaro supporters are fan boys either.

As far as I can tell the Camaro has 2 inherent advantages relative to performance:

1. It weighs a little less (It also seems smaller, and a bit cramped.)
2. It has a more rigid chassis architecture

Agreed.

I will add that I think GM is ahead of the game in chassis/suspension tuning as well. They clearly dial in their suspension set-ups better than Ford. If that's what you meant by #2, then apologies.

I think the GT is a great daily driver car for people like me that really just want a V8 manual, love the sound and characteristics, and are not overly concerned with pure speed and performance.

It WAS also a great platform for those that love to mod their cars, like many of us. It is just too expensive now to still make that statement though, its now in line with the SS.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

I'm sorry, I cannot follow all of the arguments, can anyone summarize the top 3? Flame me if you must.

I seem to be siding with Norm. He is not a fanboy and neither am I. But I am not saying all the Camaro supporters are fan boys either.

As far as I can tell the Camaro has 2 inherent advantages relative to performance:

1. It weighs a little less (It also seems smaller, and a bit cramped.)
2. It has a more rigid chassis architecture

If you are comparing the Camaro to the '18 Mustang, the Mustang has closed the straight line performance gap to pretty even (although initial reports suggest the Camaro is a touch faster if you have to pick one).

If you are comparing performance content, the Mustang added Magneride, Dual Mode Exhaust, chassis bracing, etc., to again even things up a bit.

If you are comparing dynamic handling, the Camaro has a clear advantage. The turn-in is near instantaneous, it has laser sharp precision, and good feedback. The body motions are pretty much non-existent, and with Magnetic Ride Control, it is a very comfortable ride as well.

I was expecting the Mustang to close the gap here as well, because they now have Magneride available, but it seems as though the body motions of the PP1 are way too loose for the track or canyon carving. The rear end flops over so much, you have to make adjustments in the steering (you turn in, wait, then adjust after the rear flops over). I personally feel that this was avoidable.

Some folks have suggested that Ford chose this route intentionally because they wanted a more comfortable ride. But that is no longer true. You don't have to have a harsh suspension to have a great handling car (yes you can make it a bit better by getting harsh, but you don't have to be harsh anymore). And that is without Magneride. WITH Magneride, the Mustang could do a lot better and still be a comfortable ride for road trips.

[End User]

I highly recommend that you subscribe to Motor Trend OnDemand. It is well worth the $. The SS 1LE vs Mustang GT PP1 video was released three weeks ago.

I'm a longtime reader of Evo (and Performance Car before Evo) so it was nice to see Jethro Bovingdon join Motor Trend. Jethro's drift of a SharkWerks Porsche 997.2 GT3 RS in the canyons was just epic. His Anglesey runs are a treat to watch.

Jethro's comments regarding the 2018 Mustang GT PP1 outlined why it is a such a pig of a car. PP2 may level the playing field but I don't like the looks of the redesign so it was never an option for me.

Truth be told the previous gen Z/28 sold me on the Camaro as a honest to goodness sorted performance car. The current gen SS 1LE is the icing on the cake for me and it is within my budget. I have a 2018 2SS 1LE in production and I can hardly wait for it to arrive.