[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Something like....this?

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...-make-the-car/

EXACTLY!!!

I love that they did this, and was surprised they did.

[R.C. Collins]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Something like....this?

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...-make-the-car/

Wow. I missed that article. Thanks for the link!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

A lot of people want to bash on MT for putting out the PP1 vs. 1LE H2H because it wasn't a fair fight but you have to remember that at the end of the day it comes down to what Ford will give them and what they will let them do with it.

They could have decided to put the comparison off until a PP2 was available (or is Ford going to keep the PP2 out of their hands indefinitely?). It was MT's decision to not wait and run the test they could put together to its foregone conclusion anyway.

When he said it was due to a price gap that tells me Ford doesn't want their almost $60k GT350 getting beat by the $45k 1LE, I think it's that simple.

Edit: Jonny said this after myself and a few others sent him more than a few DMs asking for the 1LE vs. GT350 H2H.... FYI

Understandable. Sad, but understandable.


Norm

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

They could have decided to put the comparison off until a PP2 was available (or is Ford going to keep the PP2 out of their hands indefinitely?). It was MT's decision to not wait and run the test they could put together to its foregone conclusion anyway.


Norm

If they waited until this spring for the PP2, then everyone would complain that they should of waited for the 19 refresh Camaro.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

They could have decided to put the comparison off until a PP2 was available (or is Ford going to keep the PP2 out of their hands indefinitely?). It was MT's decision to not wait and run the test they could put together to its foregone conclusion anyway.


Norm

I don't blame MT here at all. They need to sell magazines and their on-demand channel. Chevy gave them a 1LE and Ford gave them a PP1. In their mind these are performance upgrades to the base SS and GT.

I draw two conclusions here: 1. Ford sent a PP1 because that's all that was ready and it was close in street/strip performance to the 1LE.

2. Ford knows the PP1 isn't close to the 1LE but by saying the PP2 is 3 seconds faster than the PP1 and the PP1 was 3 seconds behind the 1LE gets people excited for the PP2.

I have my doubts that the PP2 will be close to the 1LE. Let's see if it beats the base SS before we jump to any conclusions on its performance. I say this not because I think the Camaro is untouchable, but because the S550 has underperformed expectations for 4 model years now.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I don't blame MT here at all. They need to sell magazines and their on-demand channel. Chevy gave them a 1LE and Ford gave them a PP1. In their mind these are performance upgrades to the base SS and GT.

I draw two conclusions here: 1. Ford sent a PP1 because that's all that was ready and it was close in street/strip performance to the 1LE.

2. Ford knows the PP1 isn't close to the 1LE but by saying the PP2 is 3 seconds faster than the PP1 and the PP1 was 3 seconds behind the 1LE gets people excited for the PP2.

I have my doubts that the PP2 will be close to the 1LE. Let's see if it beats the base SS before we jump to any conclusions on its performance. I say this not because I think the Camaro is untouchable, but because the S550 has underperformed expectations for 4 model years now.

This H2H took place back in November (IIRC), and I'm sure that the arrangements were made months before. More than likely MT didn't yet know there even WAS a PP2, and Ford hadn't announced yet, so they weren't going to spill the beans. Hell, it's entirely possible that at the time the arrangements were made, even FORD didn't know there was a PP2. Remember, PP2 was developed by rogue engineers off hours without Ford Corporate's knowledge.

But, in the end of the day, I want MORE H2H's, not LESS. Test everything against everything else! All data is relevant, it just has to be put into context.

Just like the tire issue. Can the Mustang fans legitimately claim that a lot of the lap time difference is due to tires? HELL YES! Everything has to be put into it's proper context. But after applying context, it's not JUST the tires that make the 1LE a better car. The Camaro is better in every performance category, but the Mustang is better for sales, visibility, and trunk space.

Now, let's see what PP2 can do!!!!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

My question is if the PP2 does beat the 1LE (IMO I don't think it will) will this forum claim that the PP2 had a tire advantage and that is the only reason it won? Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

If PP2 were to out-perform the 1LE, I would give Ford credit for having the cajones to up the ante by putting serious track tires on the PP2.

[1295/SS]

Originally Posted by newmoon

My question is if the PP2 does beat the 1LE (IMO I don't think it will) will this forum claim that the PP2 had a tire advantage and that is the only reason it won? Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

Do you guys ever stop? You're the whiniest bunch I have seen on a forum in a long time.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

And yet, we never bring up the fact that the Camaros are all running on 20" wheels while the Mustangs are running on 18" wheels...

Like that doesn't play into launch, road racing, etc...

It's not our fault Ford put shitty tires on the car....

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

And yet, we never bring up the fact that the Camaros are all running on 20" wheels while the Mustangs are running on 18" wheels...

Like that doesn't play into launch, road racing, etc...

It's not our fault Ford put shitty tires on the car....

only the base models run 18's on the Mustang.

the Performance Pack wheels are all 19's, as were the black wheels that were on that first comparison test.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by newmoon

My question is if the PP2 does beat the 1LE (IMO I don't think it will) will this forum claim that the PP2 had a tire advantage and that is the only reason it won? Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

I don't know about others, but it won't be just the tires. There is currently a 3 second gap, on a very short track. You're not going to make up those 3 seconds in wheel and tire alone. They are stiffening the crap out of PP2 and adjusting the suspension settings. If they do it, which they can, it will be the compilation of all those things. Truth is, if anything, they'll match or come close to the 1LE. By close I mean .5 second spread either way, which is ultimately more a less driver skill at that point. My money is still on the 1LE. Oh, and with all that suspension gear, the PP2 might be too stiff for daily driving.

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

Ford doesn't want their almost $60k GT350 getting beat by the $45k 1LE, I think it's that simple.

Ford would never allow this comparison, too great of a risk in tarnishing the GT350 reputation.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

only the base models run 18's on the Mustang.

the Performance Pack wheels are all 19's, as were the black wheels that were on that first comparison test.

18 are on all. You get 19 when you get PP or black package. Even premium has 18’s.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

18 are on all. You get 19 when you get PP or black package. Even premium has 18’s.

I meant non-package GT's.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by R.C. Collins

What i'd like to see is back to back tests: First with OEM tires and wheels, then with identical tire compounds on both cars, that way we'd get a better idea if it's the rubber or the chassis/suspension setup that's the advantage.

Who decides the tire? And in order for it to work and be fair that tire would have to be better than the tires that come on both cars...or worse than the tires that come on both cars.

But then when the Camaro wins then the next excuse will be because the shocks are better and people will wanna put equal shocks on both cars. Or this...or that. These cars come from the factory equipped a certain way. The tires they have are factored into the price of the car and are part of the car itself. And a lot goes into the process of the manufacturer picking a specific tire. If people wanna give all the credit to the tire then so be it. But they would still be acknowledging that bone stock from the factory the Camaro outperforms the Mustang.

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

Jonny has said that a 1LE vs. GT350 H2H is almost certainly never going to happen, sorry guys. He stated the main reason being the "big price gap". I don't think that's so much of a MT problem as it is a Ford problem. A lot of people want to bash on MT for putting out the PP1 vs. 1LE H2H because it wasn't a fair fight but you have to remember that at the end of the day it comes down to what Ford will give them and what they will let them do with it. When he said it was due to a price gap that tells me Ford doesn't want their almost $60k GT350 getting beat by the $45k 1LE, I think it's that simple.

Edit: Jonny said this after myself and a few others sent him more than a few DMs asking for the 1LE vs. GT350 H2H.... FYI

And this is why I think the Mustang is inferior. If MT wanted to pit any Mustang against any Camaro I doubt GM would have a problem with that. Because there is nothing Ford has that can make the Camaro or Corvette look bad. But if you put that the other way around, the Camaro can make the Mustangs and even the Shelbys look very bad.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

They could have decided to put the comparison off until a PP2 was available (or is Ford going to keep the PP2 out of their hands indefinitely?). It was MT's decision to not wait and run the test they could put together to its foregone conclusion anyway.

They COULD have. But why SHOULD they? I ask this again, why should everyone have to wait for Ford to get their shit together? And how many different version do they need before they can compete with the Camaro. The PP2 is already 2 trim levels up from the GT while the 1LE is 1 trim level up from the SS. But I guess that's "fair" to the Mustang guys.