[psykostevo]

I recently began working with a customer who came to us with a modified car (as most do), who was ready for their tune. The mods were installed with the anticipation of having the tune done right away, so there is no real worry in this particular case, but it got me thinking about the people who buy just the bolt-ons and either don't buy the tune at all or buy it way down the road.

The stock pulls on this car show that with the bolt-ons this particular car is making a very healthy amount of power. That is, until it hits the ECU's factory torque output limit and torque management steps in to greatly reduce the amount of power that the engine is allowed to put to the ground.

In the graph you can see that from about 3,750 RPM to about 5,750 RPM the power output of the car is significantly reduced. This will happen if your car produces more torque than the ECU's preset torque limit, and is a significant reason to make sure that you get a good tune to support your mods. Without a tune this driver would be scooting around with basically less than 200whp due to the torque management intervention, when they could easily be making well over 260 whp as is. The torque management on these cars is aggressive on the stock tune, and very unforgiving.



What is actually happening here is that the ECU is sensing the additional torque output and is commanding the throttle body to start closing (much like it does during traction control). As the driver you may feel this as a sort of "nerfing" or dead spot in the powerband.

In even more extreme cases the ECU will also start to report false knock retard in order to demand less airflow from the turbocharger. (there is a table that reduces allowed airflow from the turbo in the presence of knock, FYI).

Here is what the ECU commanded Throttle % was, despite the fact that the driver's foot was at 100% throttle the entire time:

[Evil-Bee-NH]

Throttle controller negates the throttle adjustment from the stock ecu but your write-up makes a ton of sense and me and my tuner saw the same thing.

[Nate...]

Torque management strikes again. Interesting charts. Thank you!

[psykostevo]

Originally Posted by Evil-Bee-NH

Throttle controller negates the throttle adjustment from the stock ecu but your write-up makes a ton of sense and me and my tuner saw the same thing.

Got a link to the Throttle Controller product? I haven't had a customer bring one in yet, and I don't use them personally.

[psykostevo]

Originally Posted by oemtech

I will agree with the above. I have been monitoring my stock tune for better part 2 months. I monitor KR, Ing, & LTFT/STFT's. Even with moderate acceleration, like getting on the freeway, I see knock retard, with no audtiable knock and ignition timing being pulled.

I have the ear of a GM engineer and he has stated, "It is all about TORQUE MANAGEMENT". So, even with bolt on's your screwed. I had my ATS on a mobile dyno at Coffee & Cars once with a canned Diablo tune. I was not impressed even though it ran 144.3 at the Texas Mile. Now if you compare my dyno sheet with the one above it will verify what RPM Motorsports is saying.

Yeah, usually the False KR only comes into play when your airflow g/cyl exceeds the Knock Limit programmed in the tune. They use it like an overboost controller, though it's based on cylinder airmass and not pressure persay.

[psykostevo]

Also something I found interesting is how perfectly overlapped after 5800 or so RPM these 2 pulls were. They were different below that rpm, but above that RPM they were 100% identically overlapped.

[Michigan1LTRS]

Understanding it would void the warranty but how much hp stock can this car put down safely with a tune only?

[Evil-Bee-NH]

Originally Posted by psykostevo

Got a link to the Throttle Controller product? I haven't had a customer bring one in yet, and I don't use them personally.

There's two out that work well with the 2016+ 2.0T. What they basically do is modify the voltage sent to the throttle so it opens faster. You'll here all kinds of negative and positive on the devices like some will say just slam your foot down harder same result but it's not and it is that simple. With your TRQ MGMNT no amount of foot stomping will stop the decrease. Also stomping the foot isn't what the throttle controller is really intended for it's a nice by-product but under normal acceleration it makes the car respond better by opening that throttle faster. I'll post links to both after I did a simple google search for them. Like I said earlier me and my tuner noticed the same thin your seeing only on my runs it cut out after the 5500rpm range on pulls which is fairly typical of most cars without a tune. You can find my pulls on my Build Journal under the sticky in this section. I'll end by stating these aren't everyone's cup of tea and this isn't me promoting the product they are a bit pricey but it's a personal comfort/feeling mod more then anything else doesn't add power period.

Vitesse Throttle Controller

JMS PedalMax

[Evil-Bee-NH]

Originally Posted by Michigan1LTRS

Understanding it would void the warranty but how much hp stock can this car put down safely with a tune only?

I'd say stock with a tune your gonna max out your setting around 320RWHP. Different mods and different cars will have different limitations because they may come of the same assembly line but no two engines or cars are the same despite having the same build order and operation some just last and fly better then others.

[Michigan1LTRS]

Originally Posted by Evil-Bee-NH

I'd say stock with a tune your gonna max out your setting around 320RWHP.

Hmm, 320rwhp with a tune only? Steve can you verify this?

[Evil-Bee-NH]

Originally Posted by Michigan1LTRS

Hmm, 320rwhp with a tune only? Steve can you verify this?

Just remember dyno conditions and different cars. Look at what mine dyno'd stock but also take into consideration I've had awesome dyno pull conditions stock pull it was maybe 65 degrees no humidity cool air. Bolt-On was 50 degrees and slightly humid. Basically both were great conditions to have a dyno pull Saturdays pull was near perfect conditions 40 degrees cool weather and a cool breeze unfortunately HPTuners f@cked up my tuning day with sending the wrong file version.

[ChicagoTommy]

Originally Posted by Evil-Bee-NH

There's two out that work well with the 2016+ 2.0T. What they basically do is modify the voltage sent to the throttle so it opens faster. You'll here all kinds of negative and positive on the devices like some will say just slam your foot down harder same result but it's not and it is that simple. With your TRQ MGMNT no amount of foot stomping will stop the decrease. Also stomping the foot isn't what the throttle controller is really intended for it's a nice by-product but under normal acceleration it makes the car respond better by opening that throttle faster. I'll post links to both after I did a simple google search for them. Like I said earlier me and my tuner noticed the same thin your seeing only on my runs it cut out after the 5500rpm range on pulls which is fairly typical of most cars without a tune. You can find my pulls on my Build Journal under the sticky in this section. I'll end by stating these aren't everyone's cup of tea and this isn't me promoting the product they are a bit pricey but it's a personal comfort/feeling mod more then anything else doesn't add power period.

Vitesse Throttle Controller

JMS PedalMax

There is still some confusion on how these devices work.

1. It can not command the throttle to open faster. You can test this on your own by timing the time it takes the throttle blade to open to WOT with and without the device. The stepper motor that drives your throttle has a limit which can not be exceeded by supplying extra voltage. If you could open the throttle faster or further, it would show in a simple 0-60 run. Now what it does do, is open the throttle wider than commanded. When you depress your accelerator pedal (using arbitrary numbers here due to the actual figures being proprietary) 25%, the device conditions the signal to show 40% to the ECU. Then the ECU commands the stepper motor to open to a 40% angle. Now the device can also tell the ECU that you commanded 40% throttle at X ramp rate opposed to your actual ramp rate of Y. Both of those changes combine to create the 'enhanced' pedal feel. At WOT, none of this matters.

2. It can not defeat Torque Management programmed into the ECU. You ECU will still command the throttle to close if the Torque delivered limit is exceeded. 100% does not matter how much voltage you send to the ECU. You're still gonna end up with intervention without an aftermarket calibration.

3. Your run cuts out higher due to your tuner partially removing Torque Management. Apparently there are some cells that have been left unaltered. You might want to learn to use the 'compare' feature of HPT on your own so you can validate what has been changed.

[psykostevo]

Originally Posted by Evil-Bee-NH

There's two out that work well with the 2016+ 2.0T. What they basically do is modify the voltage sent to the throttle so it opens faster. You'll here all kinds of negative and positive on the devices like some will say just slam your foot down harder same result but it's not and it is that simple. With your TRQ MGMNT no amount of foot stomping will stop the decrease. Also stomping the foot isn't what the throttle controller is really intended for it's a nice by-product but under normal acceleration it makes the car respond better by opening that throttle faster. I'll post links to both after I did a simple google search for them. Like I said earlier me and my tuner noticed the same thin your seeing only on my runs it cut out after the 5500rpm range on pulls which is fairly typical of most cars without a tune. You can find my pulls on my Build Journal under the sticky in this section. I'll end by stating these aren't everyone's cup of tea and this isn't me promoting the product they are a bit pricey but it's a personal comfort/feeling mod more then anything else doesn't add power period.

Vitesse Throttle Controller

JMS PedalMax

Thanks for the links and the info. Considering the demanded torque can be programmed in the ECU, this might be a mostly useless option if you are getting tuned, but then again it probably has its unique intended uses where it comes in handy.

[psykostevo]

Originally Posted by ChicagoTommy

There is still some confusion on how these devices work.

1. It can not command the throttle to open faster. You can test this on your own by timing the time it takes the throttle blade to open to WOT with and without the device. The stepper motor that drives your throttle has a limit which can not be exceeded by supplying extra voltage. If you could open the throttle faster or further, it would show in a simple 0-60 run. Now what it does do, is open the throttle wider than commanded. When you depress your accelerator pedal (using arbitrary numbers here due to the actual figures being proprietary) 25%, the device conditions the signal to show 40% to the ECU. Then the ECU commands the stepper motor to open to a 40% angle. Now the device can also tell the ECU that you commanded 40% throttle at X ramp rate opposed to your actual ramp rate of Y. Both of those changes combine to create the 'enhanced' pedal feel. At WOT, none of this matters.

2. It can not defeat Torque Management programmed into the ECU. You ECU will still command the throttle to close if the Torque delivered limit is exceeded. 100% does not matter how much voltage you send to the ECU. You're still gonna end up with intervention without an aftermarket calibration.

3. Your run cuts out higher due to your tuner partially removing Torque Management. Apparently there are some cells that have been left unaltered. You might want to learn to use the 'compare' feature of HPT on your own so you can validate what has been changed.

I was wondering how that thing was getting around the ECU's torque limit and still keeping the throttle open. good to know that it DOESN'T.