[Rexracer]

Looking with peoples comments now that SCCA has moved the SS 1LEs to FS instead of BS.

Based on results from Nationals, Mike Leeder who got 2nd in BS, would have won FS by 3/4 of a second. The 2nd fastest Camaro, Jerry Centanni who got 9th in BS, he would have ended up 4th.

So it looks like a good fit in FS without being an extreme over-dog compared to the M3s.

Wishing Camaro prices weren't up so much these days, or I would be jumping over.

[DaveC113]

Already went CAMC so don't care.

IMO it was a bad move though, makes any non-track-pack Mustang or Camaro uncompetitive in any class and these are common cars for beginning autox'ers to show up with. If those cars were allowed to run the same size wheels as the track-pack cars it would help.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

IMO it was a bad move though, makes any non-track-pack Mustang or Camaro uncompetitive in any class and these are common cars for beginning autox'ers to show up with.

I disagree that it's a bad move.

The problem is that no one was showing up in regular Mustangs and Camaros any more and FS participation was dwindling. Until not that many years ago, the equivalent package pony cars were not segregated out and attendance was good or better despite the hot package changing almost every year.

One of the issues recently is that the M3 became perceived (rightly or wrongly) as the car to have and the few people that were making an effort in GTs and SSs changed cars to run in other classes or, the second main issue, they went to CAM.

Whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that people were not showing up.

There were a lot more people running 1LE Camaros in BS this past year than I was expecting as the perception has been the M2 and M2C would be dominant (hence all the sky is falling whining to move the 1LE two and three years ago). With the move to FS, I expect to see a LOT more out there in 2022 as well as more GT350s.

I'm curious to see how BS will play out. It was a very diverse class in 2021 (2020 and 2019, too, kinda) with decent turn out at nearly all events, but about the third of the class just went to FS. But in combination with those moves, some other cars are coming down from AS that are going to make BS faster. If the none of the moves happened, I would have shown up again in BS in 2022 (unless running Oscar in CSP happens). If the AS to BS moves (2021+ Supra, base and Z51 C6 Vette, and -maybe- the non-turbo 996) happened and the Camaro stayed in BS, I wouldn't bother. Dunno how BS will go, but it looks interesting. I think there's a good chance it will stay diverse with a reasonably good chance that multiple cars people want to drive can win.

It's a good set of moves that should increase FS participation without cannibalizing another class to do it.

If those cars were allowed to run the same size wheels as the track-pack cars it would help.

There are many non-starter cars in Solo that would be a whole lot better if there was a wheel width allowance. What makes the pony cars special? If you want to add a wheel width allowance to street, what, if any, limits would you place on it? How would you propose reclassing all cars with the new allowance in mind? How easy would it be to assemble the data necessary to know what size wheels and tires can fit under all teh existing cars so you can estimate their revised performance envelopes? How will you know what wheel and tire sizes will fit under new cars/packages as they're introduced until people start throwing parts on them? How would you respond to the complaints of the hundreds or thousands of members that bought and prepped cars based on the existing ruleset whose cars are now also-rans because of the new allowance?

There are 9 Street (stock) classes plus SSR. There are thousands of eligible cars, models, packages that have to be placed in those containers. Only a few can be competitive at a time. Nearly every single time a new car becomes competitive, it's going to be at the expense of another one. If you have more than 15 total competitive cars across those 10 classes, you're doing a really good job.

I just don't think it's as easy to say that a wheel allowance would help fix anything. To the extent it might help one specific thing ("Make my car dominant!"), it just moves the problem somewhere else ("They f'ed me over!").

(I've spent way too much time thinking and arguing this stuff for too many years...can you tell? )

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by clyde

I disagree that it's a bad move.

The problem is that no one was showing up in regular Mustangs and Camaros any more and FS participation was dwindling. Until not that many years ago, the equivalent package pony cars were not segregated out and attendance was good or better despite the hot package changing almost every year.

One of the issues recently is that the M3 became perceived (rightly or wrongly) as the car to have and the few people that were making an effort in GTs and SSs changed cars to run in other classes or, the second main issue, they went to CAM.

Whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that people were not showing up.

There were a lot more people running 1LE Camaros in BS this past year than I was expecting as the perception has been the M2 and M2C would be dominant (hence all the sky is falling whining to move the 1LE two and three years ago). With the move to FS, I expect to see a LOT more out there in 2022 as well as more GT350s.

I'm curious to see how BS will play out. It was a very diverse class in 2021 (2020 and 2019, too, kinda) with decent turn out at nearly all events, but about the third of the class just went to FS. But in combination with those moves, some other cars are coming down from AS that are going to make BS faster. If the none of the moves happened, I would have shown up again in BS in 2022 (unless running Oscar in CSP happens). If the AS to BS moves (2021+ Supra, base and Z51 C6 Vette, and -maybe- the non-turbo 996) happened and the Camaro stayed in BS, I wouldn't bother. Dunno how BS will go, but it looks interesting. I think there's a good chance it will stay diverse with a reasonably good chance that multiple cars people want to drive can win.

It's a good set of moves that should increase FS participation without cannibalizing another class to do it.


There are many non-starter cars in Solo that would be a whole lot better if there was a wheel width allowance. What makes the pony cars special? If you want to add a wheel width allowance to street, what, if any, limits would you place on it? How would you propose reclassing all cars with the new allowance in mind? How easy would it be to assemble the data necessary to know what size wheels and tires can fit under all teh existing cars so you can estimate their revised performance envelopes? How will you know what wheel and tire sizes will fit under new cars/packages as they're introduced until people start throwing parts on them? How would you respond to the complaints of the hundreds or thousands of members that bought and prepped cars based on the existing ruleset whose cars are now also-rans because of the new allowance?

There are 9 Street (stock) classes plus SSR. There are thousands of eligible cars, models, packages that have to be placed in those containers. Only a few can be competitive at a time. Nearly every single time a new car becomes competitive, it's going to be at the expense of another one. If you have more than 15 total competitive cars across those 10 classes, you're doing a really good job.

I just don't think it's as easy to say that a wheel allowance would help fix anything. To the extent it might help one specific thing ("Make my car dominant!"), it just moves the problem somewhere else ("They f'ed me over!").

(I've spent way too much time thinking and arguing this stuff for too many years...can you tell? )

Thanks for sharing your views, that makes sense.

CAMC is surely a big reason FS attendance is down. You end up with tons of guys in FS who really want to do a mod or two driving less-prepped cars in CAM, which as a whole seems to drag it's PAX down. The soft PAX is a bit odd, since some cars, like the GT350R and ZLE are classed SS but also qualify for CAMC, and once in CAMC they can be modded however you like.

On tire width, it could be as simple as allowing a base Camaro or Mustang to use the same size wheels as whatever hot version used that same year. So a Camaro SS could use SS 1LE sized wheels, but the '16 SS couldn't because there was no '16 SLE. Base Mustang could use PP1 or PP2 sizes depending on what was offered that year, etc. I don't think this needs to be very complicated in this case, although I can see how applying it to cars that don't have handling or track pack versions of the exact same car would be a slippery slope. This would allow owners of base Camaro and Mustangs to buy larger wheels and tires without having to move to CAM, they could stay in FS and be competitive with their friends who bought the track packs instead of having no chance whatsoever in CAMC or buying much narrower tires and having no chance in FS either.

Finally, it does seem a little odd that owners of CAM cars have to choose between 100% stock or no-holds-barred classes with nothing in between, but then again there's already arguably too many classes already.

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by clyde

I disagree that it's a bad move.

The problem is that no one was showing up in regular Mustangs and Camaros any more and FS participation was dwindling. Until not that many years ago, the equivalent package pony cars were not segregated out and attendance was good or better despite the hot package changing almost every year.

One of the issues recently is that the M3 became perceived (rightly or wrongly) as the car to have and the few people that were making an effort in GTs and SSs changed cars to run in other classes or, the second main issue, they went to CAM.

Whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that people were not showing up.

There were a lot more people running 1LE Camaros in BS this past year than I was expecting as the perception has been the M2 and M2C would be dominant (hence all the sky is falling whining to move the 1LE two and three years ago). With the move to FS, I expect to see a LOT more out there in 2022 as well as more GT350s.

I'm curious to see how BS will play out. It was a very diverse class in 2021 (2020 and 2019, too, kinda) with decent turn out at nearly all events, but about the third of the class just went to FS. But in combination with those moves, some other cars are coming down from AS that are going to make BS faster. If the none of the moves happened, I would have shown up again in BS in 2022 (unless running Oscar in CSP happens). If the AS to BS moves (2021+ Supra, base and Z51 C6 Vette, and -maybe- the non-turbo 996) happened and the Camaro stayed in BS, I wouldn't bother. Dunno how BS will go, but it looks interesting. I think there's a good chance it will stay diverse with a reasonably good chance that multiple cars people want to drive can win.

It's a good set of moves that should increase FS participation without cannibalizing another class to do it.


There are many non-starter cars in Solo that would be a whole lot better if there was a wheel width allowance. What makes the pony cars special? If you want to add a wheel width allowance to street, what, if any, limits would you place on it? How would you propose reclassing all cars with the new allowance in mind? How easy would it be to assemble the data necessary to know what size wheels and tires can fit under all teh existing cars so you can estimate their revised performance envelopes? How will you know what wheel and tire sizes will fit under new cars/packages as they're introduced until people start throwing parts on them? How would you respond to the complaints of the hundreds or thousands of members that bought and prepped cars based on the existing ruleset whose cars are now also-rans because of the new allowance?

There are 9 Street (stock) classes plus SSR. There are thousands of eligible cars, models, packages that have to be placed in those containers. Only a few can be competitive at a time. Nearly every single time a new car becomes competitive, it's going to be at the expense of another one. If you have more than 15 total competitive cars across those 10 classes, you're doing a really good job.

I just don't think it's as easy to say that a wheel allowance would help fix anything. To the extent it might help one specific thing ("Make my car dominant!"), it just moves the problem somewhere else ("They f'ed me over!").

(I've spent way too much time thinking and arguing this stuff for too many years...can you tell? )

all what Clide said here.

FS just needed new blood. And the super pony cars in BS are healthy numbers.

Plus I feel as enthusiast that do this sport and show up at national events would rather buy a 1le and be competitive, not so much a base ss.

Its an imperfect system but it is what it is. I was happy with the car in BS, fun underdog battle and damn i got close! So i am happy with that

PAX though.... i am not the only one to say this but FS pax is way too easy for FS this year with the super car pony move lol.

[Msquared]

Pretty much for all the reasons stated above, I think this move makes sense. FS was always conceived as the "pony car" class, and it was historically dominated by pony cars with the best performance oriented regular-factory options, but not dealer options or limited editions that not everyone could find. So the original 3rd-gen and 4th-gen 1LEs basically weren't allowed in the years where you had to have a racing license to buy one. And that was fine. But nobody ever expected to show up with a base Camaro in FS and compete with a Z28. SCCA can't have a class where every version of every car ever made is competitive, but FS also shouldn't be dominated a low-production German car where the newest example is now 9 years old and nice ones still cost as much as a new 1LE, either (and good luck trying to find a Competition version, which is the one to have). That's been killing the class for a few years now. So I think this move makes sense for FS, and the moves from AS to BS will probably also make sense, and there are probably one or two cars that now need to move from SS to AS (like maybe the C7 GS) as the C8 and newest GT3/4 come in. This is how things tend to go.

Originally Posted by apexit53

PAX though.... i am not the only one to say this but FS pax is way too easy for FS this year with the super car pony move lol.

So yeah, there's no way they're leaving the index at 0.808, is there? I wasn't expecting that. I expect that they will adjust this a bit since the new indices were announced before the track pony moved was announced. OTOH, SSC is still down at 0.809, so...

[conemark]

F-Street was on life support in terms of participation. When initial requests for input were requested, I was on-board with putting the SS 1LE into FS (along with the ATS-V, which I'd love to hear why that didn't go in as well).

Some say the solution was to move the M3 out instead of moving the B-Street pony cars in. The argument then was that FS could give the base V8 cars their place again. However, as we've seen, CAM pretty much took care of making the base cars more enticing to autocross. If there were interest in the remaining base V8 pony cars, perhaps moving them to DS may not be a bad idea along with the turbo ponies to GS. Yes, I already wrote my own "thank you for your input" response to that last sentence.

[apexit53]

i did see something on sccaforums that there might be a change to FS pax posted later today/

[94boosted]

Originally Posted by apexit53

i did see something on sccaforums that there might be a change to FS pax posted later today/

Yup looks like it just got bumped from 0.808 to 0.814


https://www.solotime.info/pax/

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by 94boosted

Yup looks like it just got bumped from 0.808 to 0.814


https://www.solotime.info/pax/

FUNNY, its what BS was last year lol

[Hunter's Run]

I sure hope that they move the V6 Non 1LE Camaros to a class we can be competitive in.

[conemark]

Originally Posted by Hunter's Run

I sure hope that they move the V6 Non 1LE Camaros to a class we can be competitive in.

That would need to start by the "letter writing" campaign to the SAC & SEB. There is some thought among folks out there that the former "base" FS cars would fit into DS and the turbo ponies to GS. I'm working on my letter now and if you think the idea is valid, certainly "write in".

[joelster]

Originally Posted by conemark

That would need to start by the "letter writing" campaign to the SAC & SEB. There is some thought among folks out there that the former "base" FS cars would fit into DS and the turbo ponies to GS. I'm working on my letter now and if you think the idea is valid, certainly "write in".

"Thank you for your input, but we feel that FS is properly classed at this time"

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by joelster

"Thank you for your input, but we feel that FS is properly classed at this time"

unfortunately it wont really have anywhere to play if they move it. Stock class at least. DS is too fast now but might be a better car for that class. Id suggest writing the letter suggesting that move. put it in their ear at least. With the super pony move to FS moving the v6le to ds could be a decent move.